Profile For David M.

Sorry Don, I have no idea. My best answer would be to call and talk to someone about it. I like the trucking truth blog because of the lack of advertising and don't want to promote any single company..... I want to help answers for one sector of this industry.

I just wanted anyone that spends time trying to read information about a potential opportunity to hear all sides of an argument for or against a sector of this industry. There are obviously very extreme mixed opinions on this subject and I will at least concede to the fact that not everyone will agree. The fact-finding portion of this discussion was to decide if lease purchase or owner operator was a good choice for someone, instead it turned into a mudslinging competition of Company driver versus Owner operator. No matter how much information and how many numbers have been posted on this blog, there are some people that will never believe what they cannot understand. I completely understand and accept that being a business owner is not for everyone, but to ignore that many, many, many people in this country can be successful business owners is just crazy!

Its kind of like saying Chocolate is the worst flavor of ice cream, YOU should only like Vanilla..... who should make that decision for you... someone else? or YOU?

Honestly, outside of math, the best reasons I've seen NOT to lease have been your non-answers to almost every straight question in this thread. To me, your posts are basically blatant advertising of the sort that usually results in me completely writing off a company because I know I'll never get a straight answer out of them. Then again, I'm also the sort who realizes that leasing is not a good option for her as a new driver and would already be saying no, so I'm not exactly your target audience.

It's not telling them they should eat vanilla ice cream, just that while the habanero ice cream might taste good now, it can burn your butt later.

Ask me a straight question and I'll give you a straight answer...... I've answered a hundred others on this post.... and straight and to the point.

Hi David I drove for Western last year for 4.5 months , haven't driven since can you please tell me if i came back for acouple months if i could qualify for lease PP thanks.

Hey Indy! Here are a few tips for Lease Operators to remember!

THREE things completely change the game. 1. Fuel savings: weekly I see fuel expenses ranging from 23 to 64 cents per mile. Simple math says if both drivers run 2500 miles per week the first one will spend $575.00 on fuel, where the scecond will spend $1600.00! That is an astounding $1025.00 difference in fueling practices! The problem with many of today's OO or LP is they spend 90% of their time focusing on methods of ownership from the 70's and 80's, mainly MPG. Using MPG as your primary financial compass is outdated and needs to be corrected immediately. 2. Maintenance: the maintenance variable is huge. Often companies will put schedules in place to service their equipment, but any professional driver will tell you that NO ONE knows their equipment better than they do. A company driver will tell someone in service and the person in service will just follow the schedule. An OO will follow their wallets and fix what needs fixing when needed. Simple things like air filters, tire pressures and fuel filters can save thousands and thousands per year. 3. Attitude: how many stores do you repeat because of their staff or someone that works there with a great attitude? Think carefully....... Often we like shopping or frequenting places that makes us feel good about our decisions. Being a business owner is the same thing in reverse. NO company guarantees OOs loads, they will offer them, but will not guarantee them. You have to remember you OWN that business which means you OWN its success OR its failure. If your business partner doesn't like working with you, or the reverse, why would they go out of their way to make sure your business is successful? You don't have to be best friends, but you have to have a mutual respect for the partnership that is required for success.

Hope that little bit helps!

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I agree completely. But how much more money is there to be made by saving fuel? $750/week? No way.

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Yeah, that's not possible. But I'd guess that maintainance savings for a good o/o or l/p could be significant. I slip seat and see first hand how the average company driver treats the company truck. Often appalling.

Could the savings in both add up to $750/wk? Where else can the owner beat the company driver in lowering expenses? David?

Sorry for the slow response........ from a hard numbers perspective there are a couple of things at work here to consider. First is miles per gallon which is most obvious one, and Secondly the location in which the fuel is purchased. Prior to the 1990's fuel pricing did not pay much of role in OO savings or losses because the national average pretty much reflected the pump price throughout the country. Post 911, we have a totally different beast on our hands with pump price separation well into the $1.65 per gallon range from SC to CA. Pre-1990's and Pre-911 MPG was the only "primary" savings and loss variable an OO could focus on when trying to gain additional profits from strategic planning.....

FIRST SAVINGS METHOD If you drive 2500 miles per week at 5 mpg you will purchase 500 gallons. We will call this our base line variable. If an OO worked on slower average velocity, less "quick starts", over reving and reduced idle time, he or she could jump to 6 or 7 mpg depending on truck, equipment, load, weight and terrain..... but the above factors typically play into the savings 3 to 1. At 6 MPG compared to 5, you would purchase 84 less gallons at the national average of $2.502 this week OR $210.17 in savings. At 7 MPG compared to 5, you would purchase 143 less gallons at the national average of $2.502 for $357.79 in savings.

SECOND SAVINGS METHOD: This one requires nothing more than to use your common sense and a little planning. Unlike yesteryear, today we have satellite space-aged technology to give us up to the minute pricing for fuel at our fingertips. No more searching for billboards alongside the interstate for prices. Back to 5 MPG and 500 gallons at the national average of $2.502 or $1251.00 in fuel cost to the OO vs. fuel pricing in SC today at $1.83 or $67 cents cheaper than the average, OR $3.59 in eastern PA! Bulk fueling practices in cheaper states will always produce extreme savings when done properly and consistently. NO ONE ever thinks about this as a "savings", but they will surely calculate it as a loss if they go over the national average!! So, IF you ran 2500 miles purchasing fuel primarily in SC, NC, NJ, etc. at $1.90 you would have an average weekly fuel cost of $950.00. If you purchased your fuel primarily in PA, NY, CT, etc. at a fuel cost of $3.39 you would have a weekly fuel cost of $1695.00. The difference in these two regions would produce a swing of approx. $745.00 in a single week based on 5 MPG and 2500 miles!!

When you combine these two methods or practices of fueling you can quickly see the success vs. failure variable in owning a truck as compared to being a company driver. The biggest myth in owning a truck is IF you are a great company driver, you would make a great OO...... far from it....... You have to be a great driver with business savvy and self discipline.

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I agree completely. But how much more money is there to be made by saving fuel? $750/week? No way.

...

Yeah, that's not possible. But I'd guess that maintainance savings for a good o/o or l/p could be significant. I slip seat and see first hand how the average company driver treats the company truck. Often appalling.

Could the savings in both add up to $750/wk? Where else can the owner beat the company driver in lowering expenses? David?

How much was put into the maintenance and escrow? How much does a 2 or 3-year-old truck typically cost to maintain and repair over the course of a year? How much would a company driver doing the same miles have made?

Most Owner's with experience will put approximately $0.09 - $0.14 cents per mile in their maintenance and $0.02 - $0.04 in escrow for a rainy day/vacation/tax purposes. The average cost of a 2 year old truck under warranty will maintain an standardized cost of 5 - 8 cents per mile, a 3 year old truck 6 - 9 depending on motor and trans setup. Remember the cost of 4 years or less is much less due to warranty coverage, policy write-offs and recall parts. This leaves most owners in a very good position financially for the future in gross savings at a rate of 5 - 7 cpm (x) 2500 avg miles per week (x) 36 months = approx. $22,000 - $24,000 in ADDITIONAL maintenance savings for the future. (Again... make sure its a maintenance SAVINGS account, not a Maintenance FUND!!) That way the money belongs to you, not the company.

For comparison: Company Driver: 2500 miles x .30 cpm = $750.00 2500 miles x .40 cpm = $1000.00 2500 miles x .44 cpm = $1100.00

Owner / LP: INCOME 2500 miles x 1.05 cpm = $2625.00 2500 miles x .32 fsc = $800.00 OR: = $3425.00 GROSS

OUTPUT 2500 miles x (avg) $0.29 to $0.34 cpm in fuel exp. = $725.00 to $850.00 Tractor package at = $560.00 weekly Maintenance at $0.09 cpm x 2500 = $225.00 Escrow fund at $0.02 cpm x 2500 = $50.00 Total output at: $1560.00 (including maintenance, escrow, permits, plates, tags, IFTA, tires, PM services, tolls, fuel, etc..)

Total Earnings for Comparison: Owner / LP: $1490.00 to $1865.00 (before taxes / depending on fuel.) Company Driver: $750.00 to $1100.00 (before taxes / depending on paid rate per mile)

Let me know if I left anything out......

so we are all correct!

David, you like to simplify things that shouldn't be simplified. We can't all be correct - this is the goof ball kind of thinking and reasoning we are teaching our kids when we give them trophies just for playing on a team in sports, instead of rewarding them for making the tough commitments it takes to win at the game The decision to lease a truck is much more complicated than deciding whether we prefer Chocolate or Vanilla ice cream. That is something we consume, but leasing a truck could quite possibly consume a person's livelihood, and has many times over.

David, we cannot all be correct when some of us aren't even telling the truth. I've been all over the halls of Western Express, know many of the good folks there, and can get many of them on the phone in a matter of minutes. I defy you to produce a driver who has a net income of 131,000 dollars - I would love to speak to them.

I've always said that numbers don't lie, but you my friend, have an uncanny ability to make me question that theory. What really concerns me about you is that you seem to believe your own rhetoric and your crazy math. I am real good with numbers David, I was a pretty good business man in the private sector for thirty years before I started driving trucks for a second career. I know all about the entrepreneurial spirit, and I loved being self employed all those years. Furthermore I am happy for anyone to be a lease operator or an owner operator, but I sure don't want them to jump into it misinformed. That is the primary difficulty I have with you. It doesn't seem to bother you one little bit to lead folks down a primrose path to ruin as long as you are benefiting from their rendezvous with disaster.

Hey again Old School..... I am 100 percent agreement with you again and again! I grew up in an age where Participation Trophies and 12th place ribbons did not exist..... I don't believe in them and never will. Every person is going to be different, have a different outlook on life and a different path that leads them from cradle to grave. I've never been to a horse race where EVERY horse came in first.... the same way I will never see two business owners operate in exactly the same manner. I have worked with thousands of owner operators in my life including family and friends and teach and learn through experience and comprehension. The hard fact is Everyone CANNOT!! Why isn't everyone a millionaire? Why do we need Microsoft or Apple, when we could just build it ourselves??.... Simple.. Because everyone cannot!! BUT I think you are saying NO ONE CAN?

When everyone asked for the math, I laid it out as simply as I could with detailed accounting of ownership, fuel, maintenance, tires, pm services, rate per mile, fuel surcharge,.... etc. Using examples from several owners, I think you would agree that it would be disrespectful to post names on a blog, but think that if anyone here reads the numbers and follows the calculations it is simple to see that they DO ADD UP and they paint the picture of a successful owner. For an opposing argument I could easily say with factual certainty that some people will not be any more successful at owning a business as they would taking a weekend class to become a heart-surgeon. Classic mistakes of an Owner gone-wrong is: "I can do what ever I want because I own this truck", "I don't have to take that load, I would rather sit and that's my decision", "I only want to run Monday through Friday because I am an owner", "I don't have time to keep up with fuel prices". All pretty similar mindset and often very similar outcome.

As a WARNING to anyone that is considering a Lease to Own program...: 1. You may or may not be successful if your business plan is flawed, 2. If you are becoming an Owner for the freedom just to turn down loads this is NOT for you, 3. Success and failure is pending almost exclusively on your fueling practices, 4. Some people are not cut out to own their own business. 5. To be completely frank with you, if you resemble numbers 1-4 the COMPANY DOES NOT WANT YOU ANYWAY!!....

Questions to ask any potential company offering a Lease Purchase Plan.... (97% of companies its not really a Lease to Own, just a Lease to Lease with a balloon.....) Search for ICP plans (true Lease to Own, Not these lease to lease or rental plans) 1. Does your Lease have a balloon payment at the end? (balloon payments are almost never reachable amounts) 2. Am I paid ALL miles or just loaded miles? (Pay should always be based on ALL miles, not just loaded to get a clearer picture) 3. Ask about Gross Revenue versus Miles driven...? What is the Net Revenue to Truck on a weekly average? 4. If your truck goes in the shop does the payment continue? (most companies it will) 5. Does the company offer business support and continuing education for their business owners? 6. Does the company offer Tax help or accounting totals for your business come tax time? 7. Can you hire a co-driver? Can you hire someone to run your truck?

I like you Errol, you are the reason I believe in blogs like this..... you debate your point well, but accept other's at the same time. Its a natural choice to want to be right.... this is just a situation where everyone is right and defending their opinion. EVERYONE is right, because some people should, some people should not, some succeed, some fail, some never make more than they did as a company driver, some make exceedingly more........ so we are all correct!

The most compelling reasons I'm hearing to lease is the freedom it gives a person, not the profit it brings. Companies are probably putting these restrictions on drivers to make more profit. If it wasn't good for the companies to have these lease programs I don't think they'd have them.

For a straight answer as Beth stated...... Freedom is one reason for being an Owner Operator. So is pride in ownership and flexibility to move between companies if needed. Next is the Profit one can make from their business if they do it correctly. An AVERAGE LP driver here (we are not talking about other companies just this one), as described in great detail on earlier pages, will take home between $1150 - $1550 per week (before taxes) after paying for all operating expenses (truck, insurance, permits, plates, tags, maintenance account, escrow, Qualcomm, etc...). The top 35% will take home $2000.00 - $2650.00 as a single operator (after all expenses / before taxes). Teams will take home $3150.00 - $4325.00 (after expenses / before taxes), and trainers will typically make more than a Top Earning single, but less than a team.

Taxes are actually a whole other ball game since the shear volume of write offs will topple the bulk of tax you would typically pay in as an employee driver. As an owner, practically everything you touch is a write off, not to mention all the current Federal tax codes geared toward helping small business owners get started and flourish in the post-bubble economy. You could better your information on that through organizations like the OOIDA, or your local tax professional.

SO FOR A STRAIGHT TO THE POINT ANSWER..... Driver A, from January 1st through August 14th has driven 87,112, for a total gross income of $138,880.00. His 35 truck payments this year to date would be $13,333.41, his fuel expenses to date this year has averaged $0.3211 cents per mile OR $27,971.66 in fuel expense, putting this owner at $97,574.93 (before taxes / after all other expenses). If he continues at a rate (discounted for holidays at 70%) for the remainder of the year, his income (before taxes) would be $131,726.16.

Please keep in mind maintenance is already included in the numbers above for a maintenance account AND an escrow account that allows for cash or early payoff of the truck.

Is this a get rich quick ploy, absolutely not!!.... Its hard work and takes dedication and a lot of planning to make your fuel come out correctly. Fuel is by far the largest contributors to one's success or failure as an owner. Hope this helps.

I just wanted anyone that spends time trying to read information about a potential opportunity to hear all sides of an argument for or against a sector of this industry. There are obviously very extreme mixed opinions on this subject and I will at least concede to the fact that not everyone will agree. The fact-finding portion of this discussion was to decide if lease purchase or owner operator was a good choice for someone, instead it turned into a mudslinging competition of Company driver versus Owner operator. No matter how much information and how many numbers have been posted on this blog, there are some people that will never believe what they cannot understand. I completely understand and accept that being a business owner is not for everyone, but to ignore that many, many, many people in this country can be successful business owners is just crazy!

Its kind of like saying Chocolate is the worst flavor of ice cream, YOU should only like Vanilla..... who should make that decision for you... someone else? or YOU?

Honestly, outside of math, the best reasons I've seen NOT to lease have been your non-answers to almost every straight question in this thread. To me, your posts are basically blatant advertising of the sort that usually results in me completely writing off a company because I know I'll never get a straight answer out of them. Then again, I'm also the sort who realizes that leasing is not a good option for her as a new driver and would already be saying no, so I'm not exactly your target audience.

It's not telling them they should eat vanilla ice cream, just that while the habanero ice cream might taste good now, it can burn your butt later.

Ask me a straight question and I'll give you a straight answer...... I've answered a hundred others on this post.... and straight and to the point.

I just wanted anyone that spends time trying to read information about a potential opportunity to hear all sides of an argument for or against a sector of this industry. There are obviously very extreme mixed opinions on this subject and I will at least concede to the fact that not everyone will agree. The fact-finding portion of this discussion was to decide if lease purchase or owner operator was a good choice for someone, instead it turned into a mudslinging competition of Company driver versus Owner operator. No matter how much information and how many numbers have been posted on this blog, there are some people that will never believe what they cannot understand. I completely understand and accept that being a business owner is not for everyone, but to ignore that many, many, many people in this country can be successful business owners is just crazy!

Its kind of like saying Chocolate is the worst flavor of ice cream, YOU should only like Vanilla..... who should make that decision for you... someone else? or YOU?

Now this should get interesting, since David is an employee of a trucking company who receives a W-2 at the end of the year! It appears he thinks you guys should take all the risks while he receives his weekly compensation for convincing you what "wet kittens" you are for not taking on the risks of a lease!

I'm confused Old School... is it me you don't like or truck leases or BOTH? For someone that owned their own business, you seem pretty Anti-Business and almost Anti-American for telling people they should just stay in the box and keep their mouth shut. Not one time have I told anyone that Leasing was a BETTER option, or try to convince anyone to lease a truck... not once! But, I have been steadfast that leasing is not the evil that you keep making it out to be. Leasing for the 100th time is NOT FOR EVERYONE, and an average guy should NOT ATTEMPT (like a warning ad on a cigarette box). Having a good CSA and MVR makes you a good driver, but not a good business owner. The same way that an experienced lease driver says "I know what I'm doing I've leased before"..... is pretty much saying "I wasn't good at it before therefore I will continue to do it the same way again and again, and probably fail again."

Owning a business is universal whether its trucks, trains, automobiles or Microsoft. You have to have a plan, execute the plan, set goals, execute your goals, stat diverse and love what you do. In this case you are the CEO and Workforce when planning to be an O/O, that is the defining difference. Again, I don't tell others how to perform heart surgery because I'm not a heart surgeon. You owned a business outside of trucking and have a CDL which makes you an expert of all leasing programs the same way that I own a home and have thinning hair therefore I must be Donald Trump.

Old School, I just wish that you would agree that there is a life outside of being a company driver. As a previous business owner, I would have a hard time believing that you really believe that all leases are created for failure and anyone that does it will fail.