Unions ...... Good Or Bad??

"I just had to point out the ignorance in this comment. Now Rob, you do realize that the bottom of the barrel don't pay income tax already. Right? I mean even you should have known that before you made that comment. Hell, not only do they not pay taxes, we give them money from people who do. Think about it, they pay 3000 in taxes through the year and get back 6000 at tax time. So they pay nothing plus get $"

You are talking about people on social assistance, I assume. And are you also saying that people making minimum wage or slightly above do not pay any income taxes? I also never said that there is any "man" holding anybody back, you are putting words in my mouth.

Just to get back to the topic of this thread, I believe that we need unions more than ever. This is evidenced by the 20 year decline in the earnings of the average trucker. To make our voices heard, we need to unite.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Well I like to make my points using data and there is an overwhelming amount of data that clearly shows what has happened with labor and the distribution of wealth over the past 35 years.

In an article by The Century Foundation they clearly demonstrate that the income of the upper 1% of earners in this nation and the income of corporations has risen dramatically over the years while the rest of us have just skipped along the bottom going nowhere.

Here is a quote from the article written in 2012:

Something strange has happened in the U.S. economy. Nearly three years after the Great Recession officially ended in June 2009, unemployment remains stubbornly high at 8.1 percent and real wage growth is nonexistent, but corporate profits and GDP have never been higher. Six million workers have dropped out of the labor force in the last two years—twice the number of people who have found new jobs—but the Dow Jones and NASDAQ are trading above pre-recession levels as if nothing had ever happened. Economists like to call this incongruity a “jobless recovery,” but you might as well call it a recovery for the 1 percent: according to recent data, that small fraction of the nation’s wealthiest captured a stunning 93 percent of a income gains from 2009–10. Income growth for the bottom 99 percent was just 0.2 percent.

Here are a couple of charts from the same article. Look at what happened to corporate profits and the average income in this country starting in the 80's when the unions began dismantling and jobs started moving overseas. And keep something in mind - from the 40's to the 80's corporate executives were making a killing and corporate profits were incredibly strong. But after the big money guys started getting leverage over the workforce it all fell apart for the middle class. Corporate profits, executive compensation, and the divide between rich and poor has never been greater in this country.

We've been duped, people! How can you not get that? Now there are some guys that keep saying, "It's a free country. Get off your *ss and go work for it. You have the freedom to do whatever you want." Well if we're free to do what we like and the big money people in fact do not have control over what's going on then how do you explain these charts? Does this look like freedom for the American worker? Does this look like we're controlling our own destinies or does this look like the rich and powerful upper 1% are taking more and more while giving the rest of us less?

Wake up!

Here's the problem Brett. People hate unions because...

1) They sometimes vote AGAINST there own self-interest. Take coal mining as an example.

The Democrat Party, has gone from a party of the blue collar worker, to a party of every grievance on the planet. They also tend to blame the U.S. first for the world's problems.

2) A burger flipper and grocery store cashier used to be high school jobs, and NOT a job unionized by SEIU.

3) Something you are quite familiar with is franchises. Most McDonald's, Krispy Kremes (are their donuts good, or what?) Burger Kings, Wendy's, etc., are franchises. The owner of a particular franchise did NOT make one billion dollars. The franchise did. That is the problem with some of these unions. ALL of these unions know this.

4) Raising the minimum wage will HURT most truckers purchasing power. If I thought unionization would help, I would be for it. If I thought unions would support politicians based on job creating policies instead of job killing laws, regulations, and policies, I would have a favorable view of unions.

5) Most everyone here has admitted that trucking companies, because of competition, are operating on very thin profit margins.

6) If I get a two cent per mile raise because of a union, how much of a raise did I really get? I mean, after union dues, taxes, increase in my share of health insurance premium (because of Obamacare and because the company is trying to keep ALL cost down), did my raise go from two cents a mile to one-half a cent.

7) What about those making more than the minimum wage, but less than $15/hour. What happens to their purchasing power?

Dave D. ... please walk me through your thought process which explains how raising the minimum wage will hurt truckers purchasing power. So by that same logic, why don't we all ask for LESS money, thereby alleviating this problem you describe.

As to your point #5, this is exactly why we need unions, to raise the bar for everyone. Your point #6 ... you really believe the unions would cost you $2,000 per year? Please expound.

For the love of me I can not understand how you guys will so easily diminish your position! You are practically doing the job of management for them, coming up with these very weak and untenuous arguments, while those at the top keep taking more for themselves. It is a very self-defeatist attitude.

Dave, just answer this. Would you like to make more money driving a truck?

My big question regarding unions specifically the Teamsters which represents drivers of all sorts, is what do they really offer? Yeah, they go after bargaining agreements but is it really so great? I look at YRC and see where these guys are giving back 15% plus their monthly dues to help the company out which is great since it was the union through their requirements that put the company in that predicament to begin with. They're slowly coming back around but they run wore out equipment that they struggle to maintain because the union says those wages gotta be paid, yet drivers complain that the trucks don't run right etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm just using YRC as an example because it's one of the ones that's the easiest to see and read up on. The other thing that has me questioning just how much better things would really be is when you look at what's going on with the teamsters currently. They're cutting pensions by pretty big numbers, cutting health care benefits, cutting here and cutting there. It's hard to make the argument that after paying in and dealing with this and that to gain nothing in return is such a great thing. Sounds like unwanted stress to me. Do wages in the industry need to go up? Yep, they sure do. Is a union the way to go? I'm not so sure that it is.

You want to see another example of how things go for the people who produce a product or service if they have no form of representation or say in the distribution of wealth? Look at football. The NFL player's union makes sure the players get a huge percentage of the profits produced by the work they do on the field. At the NCAA level, many of these universities are making more money than NFL teams are and yet they've actually made it illegal to pay a player even a single dime.

Same sport, both producing huge revenues and profits, but only the players with representation are being given any share in the profits whatsoever. The rest? It's illegal to pay them one red penny. If you do your school will be punished and the player suspended or expelled.

So make no mistake about it. The people in power will take every penny in profit for themselves and legislate everyone else's rights to their fair share of the profit completely out of the equation. They will take 100%, you will get 0%. It's happening right in front of your eyes right now. It's not anyone's opinion that the workers need representation, it's just factually obvious it seems to me. It's simple math.

these guys are giving back 15% plus their monthly dues to help the company out which is great since it was the union through their requirements that put the company in that predicament to begin with

The unions didn't tell the management to merge those companies. And those companies had competitors before and after the merger that are highly successful paying the same basic wages and benefits. So if some companies can do it, why can't others? Poor management maybe.

these guys are giving back 15% plus their monthly dues to help the company out which is great since it was the union through their requirements that put the company in that predicament to begin with

The unions didn't tell the management to merge those companies. And those companies had competitors before and after the merger that are highly successful paying the same basic wages and benefits. So if some companies can do it, why can't others? Poor management maybe.

True and honestly I had forgotten about the merger and the fact that it really didn't help the situation much. I guess I just look at unions and expect more. With the skilled trades unions, you're getting education, certifications and more from the money. I don't see that with groups like the UAW and the Teamsters, only demands and very little return in regards of professionalism and such. I look at it a little differently I guess. If I were to join or run a union, I would want to give something back. I'd expect education and training for drivers to make them the best professionals out there. Will it work for every single driver? Nope and I understand that too but at least the effort and education is there. I dunno, I see the good and the bad that have come from them, especially the UAW.

Are unions good or bad ? If this history was taught in America, the pitchforks would be at the gate.

A Peoples History of the United States 1492 to Present

"Do wages in the industry need to go up? Yep, they sure do. Is a union the way to go? I'm not so sure that it is."

Alright, at least we're making progress in that you see that wages need to go up. However, without unification, companies will be hell bent if they do any raises willingly.

I find it odd that people will criticize unions much more willingly before they say anything negative about company management.

I will say this until I am blue in the face. Unions are not bad, perhaps the way some are managed are, but that is not the fault of unions.