Unfairness Of Pay By The Hour And The Fair Labor Act

Daniel wrote:

Trucking is a skilled profession. It isn't classified that way, but we know it is. It can take years to master just backing, let alone everything else. So let's put this in perspective here. Americans tend to work on average wayyyyy more than most countries. If you went to any other country and told them you worked 70 hours a week at a skilled profession and made less than a living wage (17 or 18 an hour on average, depends on your state) with minimal benefits, they would think you were crazy. The reason truckers get paid by the mile is because that looks better to someone who doesn't know the industry. Do you think people would be so excited to pay thousands of dollars to work a 10 an hour job if they knew that's what it was? We'd have much less people going to CDL school, and driver pay would go up. Once you have your CDL, your in the pond so to speak, so you swim. CPM puts incentive on speed too. Bad idea in the winter time. (the faster your mph; the more miles; the more $); quite unsafe. Of course none of this will change until a protest or strike happens, which is unlikely since most drivers are used to cpm and unfortunately aren't the best at math. 70 hours a week at $20 an hr WITH overtime (why do we NOT deserve overtime?) equals $$$$$$1700$$$$$$. Did you make that last week?

Daniel aren't you the same person trying to get back into a driver's job (quit, been out of trucking for 3 months)? I am trying to understand if you actually believe what you wrote, why on earth would you want to re-enter the trucking industry? Just curious, cause I sense a significant level of negativity in the above reply.

I am sure you will try, but you really can't formulate a logical argument against what Old School wrote. it's spot on. And trust me I am old enough to remember the last time there were widespread trucker strikes during the fuel crises of the 70's. Be careful what you wish for...

Yes I'm the same human being who did this for 6 months and have spent the last 4 months doing other things. If there is anything else you'd like to know, just ask! Just FYI I'm leaning toward NOT getting back in the trucking industry. I guess I just like debating. I'm sure I'll get torched for what I'm about to say, but that's what makes this place somewhat interesting? Why would you assume I can't formulate a logical argument? Here is some research/media coverage to support what I said: http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93364&page=1 http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/09/news/economy/americans-work-bush/

Dear Old School,

How in the world can you even begin to compare China to the US? Of course we have it GOOD here. But shouldn't we strive to be BETTER? Our governments are just totally different. All you said was "look at these apples and rotten oranges, see here sonny, we have it good!" So sorry, your "friend of a friend" story doesn't cut it.

America is a great country in a lot of ways, so if you'd like me to sing the star spangled banner for you; let me know.

How many countries have YOU been to? It's just funny that you have a bunch of second hand stories and didn't provide that information is all. I've been to Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, United Kingdom, Spain, France, Lithuania, Belgium, Switzerland, Austria, Mexico, Canada, and Russia. I've stayed with locals in all those countries, so I have a decent idea of what their work week looks like. If you clicked on some of the links above by now, you'd see you might actually be mistaken.

Here is a living wage calculator: http://livingwage.mit.edu/ I agree that truckers can do basic math, sorry I shouldn't have said that. Part of life is admitting where you were wrong and learning from that.

Driving trucks is FUN and Interesting, the adventure lures a lot of people in. That's why I got my CDL, not because I thought this would be a good career or I'd make good money. I had a great time seeing the US and have no regrets. "The reason truckers get paid by the mile is because that looks better to someone who doesn't know the industry." was my own original thought. No insider told me that; and I don't know it's true, but it sure makes a lot of sense when you think about it. I'm not talking about you, because you KNOW the industry very well. But for someone who doesn't know trucking; it is hard to nail down how many miles they will drive. It varies widely, but not hourly.

If trucking is about moving the most freight like you say, then why shouldn't I pass you on the interstate going as fast as possible? I'll get to the receiver before you, and you'll be sitting there talking to your DM about detention pay. Miles equals money, so why shouldn't I pass you? That creates accidents, can't you see that? How often do you see people hauling ass through truck stop parking lots?

Instead of dismissing everything I say, try beating me with logic. Because I heard a lot of "While I find it difficult to follow all of your various statements, this one really confuses me." in your post.

Daniel Sage asks a very basic question

Why would you assume I can't formulate a logical argument?

Gee maybe because I have read all of your previous posts. I never assume.

Daniel Sage asks a very basic question

Why would you assume I can't formulate a logical argument?

Gee maybe because I have read all of your previous posts. I never assume.

You gave us all a prefect example of how and why I concluded that you cannot construct a logical argument:

Daniel Sae wrote:

If trucking is about moving the most freight like you say, then why shouldn't I pass you on the interstate going as fast as possible? I'll get to the receiver before you, and you'll be sitting there talking to your DM about detention pay. Miles equals money, so why shouldn't I pass you? That creates accidents, can't you see that? How often do you see people hauling ass through truck stop parking lots?

Good grief dude, you really do eat your own dog food. Being paid by way of CPM does not cause accidents. Most of the trucks operated by the largest of carriers are all governed at or between 60-67 mph. Unsafe, irresponsible, and/or unskilled drivers cause accidents.

Your point is like saying alcohol causes accidents...no people who drink alcohol and choose to drive cause accidents.

Good luck Daniel Sage...I am done with you.

Mileage pay increases incentive to drive fast, accidents hurting records discourages unsafe driving.

You guys are both right.

I think being on the road and in isolation doesn't give people a chance to practice their communication skills as much as others, and there are still plenty of people who go into the trucking profession who aren't exactly sharp as a tack, just like the rest of the world's population.

But that's another topic that's probably not totally relevant to this conversation.

I know that I've personally made a lot of stupid blunders in my life and people claim that I'm a very intelligent person.

People in the US work way more hours than other countries...?? I have to laugh at this (not at you)....because you couldn't be more wrong. Many countries don't even know what taking time off for vacation is. Personal days? No such thing. They work every single day in their lives, and only "take a day off" when they get very sick or there is some other type of emergency. Also, these same people don't make more money than we do, they often don't make enough to have all the bare necessities.

I know this....and I have not even traveled the world.

Not meaning to pick on you RV, yours was just the easiest to quote. Much of what has been said about workers in other countries is true, it's mainly the all-other-countries-are-like-this where things breakdown. Yes, people in many countries work way more hours than the US for a lower standard of living. Yes, the inhabitants of of many countries feel that the American attitude of working-to-make-a-living-instead-of-having-a-life is kinda sad (this is a common attitude in Western Europe). If you look at the records, the "Average annual hours actually worked per worker" table by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development lists 40 countries by annual hours worked. The US comes in right about #20 on this list. Many countries work more hours, many work less.

The fact remains Trucking is unlike any other job. The evidence lies in the industry being excluded from the Fair Labor Standards Act in 1938, and remaining so to this day. It has an astonishingly high drop out rate. While there are many reasons for this, I'm sure that some folks quit because they think the pay system is unfair. On the other hand, there are over 3 million truck drivers employed in the US, so some folks seem to think they are doing OK. Personally, I believe the system that has developed over the last 75 years seems to be a viable one. Sure, there is room for improvement. Often, improving one area can lead to negative consequences in another area. The system has many sub-sectors and the ability to move between them with relative ease. Don't think you're getting paid enough - drive for a different company. Not getting enough home time - drive for another company (or division within your current company). Don't believe it is fair to get paid by the mile - go drive at a position that pays hourly. I just don't seem to see enough evidence that the current system is abusive and immoral. Do some drivers feel otherwise - of course. Are some drivers actually abused - yes. But overall I feel that the trucking industry is a good industry with which to be involved. Many people agree with me, many don't.

For the record I am a bleeding heart liberal with a strong belief in the positive power of unionized labor and a belief that pure capitolism favors Robber Barons over Workers. I just disagree with the premise that the Trucking Industry today is one in need of saving. In particular, I don't believe getting paid by the mile is inherently unfair as opposed to getting paid by the hour. CPM rewards good workers immediately with no bureaucratic intersession. I plan on being in the upper 50% and to therefor benefit from the system. If I saw myself as a member of the lower 50% I might well be more in favor of hourly wages for all.

Nruck H. offered this:

Mileage pay increases incentive to drive fast, accidents hurting records discourages unsafe driving.

You guys are both right.

I think being on the road and in isolation doesn't give people a chance to practice their communication skills as much as others, and there are still plenty of people who go into the trucking profession who aren't exactly sharp as a tack, just like the rest of the world's population.

But that's another topic that's probably not totally relevant to this conversation.

I know that I've personally made a lot of stupid blunders in my life and people claim that I'm a very intelligent person.

Nruck, Although you are entitled to your opinion, and I think overall your reply was well-intended, you offer no factual basis for your point about "mileage pay". CPM is a strong and effective incentive to perform. CPM is not an incentive to speed and drive faster. Being a truck driver is all about performance and the ability to get the job done, safely and efficiently. When I first started I was paid by CPM. When I went from OTR to Dedicated I was at first salaried, then changed to CPM plus other incentives. At no time have I ever felt the need to go faster. At no time was I pressured to go faster. At no time did obeying legally posted speed limits and the speed limits governed by Swift's policies negatively effect my ability to get the job done and earn a good living. It incented me to perform, to hustle; with purpose, with efficiency and effective clock management (loosely put: "by not wasting time", "not taking long breaks" and "not getting lost"). The drivers who choose to drive fast and speed will continue to do so regardless of how they are paid.

There may well be people attempting to get into this profession who, as you put it "aren't exactly sharp as a tack". Who are we to judge if that is so? Regardless, how many of them actually make it and become successful drivers, earning a good living if they are of limited intelligence? I would argue, few if any. This business rapidly separates the wood from the chaff and will challenge the very soul of a new driver. I encourage you to read the posts of drivers regularly contributing to this forum, trying to assist newbies and doing so on their own free time. I challenge you to find one "regular" on here who falls into your "dull tack" category or for that matter any of the newbies exercising due diligence in researching their options. The "dull tack" stigma exists in the heads of the uninformed, the casual on-lookers that wrongly assume piloting a tractor trailer is a mindless, low level laborious job.

I am quite sure as you progress through this journey, you will quickly find, as others have that there is a whole lot more to this than what meets the eye.

Safe travels

In the Philippines for example; I know girls that work 6-10 hour days a week for $60 dollars total (in their pesos) Those that choose to work as maid overseas say in Saudi Arabia, live-in and work as many hours as master wants 1 girl does 20+ barely sleeps for $400 a month! And sends most of that home to help the family. As poverty at home is so bad, IF you can even get a job! So we don't have it so bad here after all.

If trucking is about moving the most freight like you say, then why shouldn't I pass you on the interstate going as fast as possible? I'll get to the receiver before you, and you'll be sitting there talking to your DM about detention pay. Miles equals money, so why shouldn't I pass you? That creates accidents, can't you see that? How often do you see people hauling ass through truck stop parking lots?

Good grief dude, you really do eat your own dog food. Being paid by way of CPM does not cause accidents. Most of the trucks operated by the largest of carriers are all governed at or between 60-67 mph. Unsafe, irresponsible, and/or unskilled drivers cause accidents.

So yes unsafe/unskilled drivers cause accidents. I agree. What do you think CAUSES drivers to be unsafe and unskilled? You think that their behavior is random? Why is everyone in a rush? Because the more miles I crank out, the more money goes in my paycheck. Why are trucks governed? Many reasons, but one is because the incentive is to go a many miles as possible before my 11 hour clock runs out. It's actually pretty simple Gong-town. Now you are calling me a dog? This just keeps getting better.

Your point is like saying alcohol causes accidents...no people who drink alcohol and choose to drive cause accidents.

If I said that trucks caused accidents I could see you making that comparison, but I am not saying that. Something happens when you don't do your job in the hourly world. It's called getting fired. Notice that almost never happens to drivers who complain, hang around the truck stop all day and don't do their job. I wonder why. You guys seem to have this idea that if we went to hourly pay like 99% of the world, nothing would get done and the good drivers wouldn't get rewarded! That's ridiculous and backwards. Do local drivers sit around and not work and keep their job long? Truckers would start getting fired. Which would lower the amount of people in the profession. Which would raise wages. So basically you are arguing for a system that works against most OTR drivers. What I would love to see is a combination. Hourly plus a lower CPM. What's so terrible about being paid for your time?

Good luck Daniel Sage...I am done with you.

Come back!

Nruck H. offered this:

Mileage pay increases incentive to drive fast, accidents hurting records discourages unsafe driving.

You guys are both right.

I think being on the road and in isolation doesn't give people a chance to practice their communication skills as much as others, and there are still plenty of people who go into the trucking profession who aren't exactly sharp as a tack, just like the rest of the world's population.

But that's another topic that's probably not totally relevant to this conversation.

I know that I've personally made a lot of stupid blunders in my life and people claim that I'm a very intelligent person.

At no time was I pressured to go faster. At no time did obeying legally posted speed limits and the speed limits governed by Swift's policies negatively effect my ability to get the job done and earn a good living. It incented me to perform, to hustle; with purpose, with efficiency and effective clock management (loosely put: "by not wasting time", "not taking long breaks" and "not getting lost"). The drivers who choose to drive fast and speed will continue to do so regardless of how they are paid.

There may well be people attempting to get into this profession who, as you put it "aren't exactly sharp as a tack". Who are we to judge if that is so?

Well, just saying that it's a bit odd to claim everybody who's a trucker is intelligent while getting to an argument with somebody. It seems like you'd either want to appeal to truckers, or you're afraid of personally being judged. Since you're in an argument with somebody, perhaps it's the latter and not the for. Again, I've said I've done some stupid things myself, not to mention you seem to be making/doing some judgements yourself, are you not? Just something to think about.

Regardless, how many of them actually make it and become successful drivers, earning a good living if they are of limited intelligence? I would argue, few if any. This business rapidly separates the wood from the chaff and will challenge the very soul of a new driver. I encourage you to read the posts of drivers regularly contributing to this forum, trying to assist newbies and doing so on their own free time. I challenge you to find one "regular" on here who falls into your "dull tack" category or for that matter any of the newbies exercising due diligence in researching their options. The "dull tack" stigma exists in the heads of the uninformed, the casual on-lookers that wrongly assume piloting a tractor trailer is a mindless, low level laborious job.

You're challenging me to find a dull tack? You mean everybody here equally excels in their reasoning, mathematical, social skills, etc? That challenge sounds rhetorical, and also that would be a difficult challenge because of people's personal biases, different levels of knowledge/ability to compare to others. Also to say the stigma exists to the "uninformed newbie", well, we're ALL uninformed in one area or another.

But to say that EVERYBODY who's a trucker is intelligent sounds erroneous, and it sounds like you're talking about somebody who thinks that ALL truck drivers are dull, but that's not what I'm saying. I've seen plenty of very intelligent and well stated responses from people who seem to be MUCH smarter than me (and not just in terms of trucking knowledge or experience) on these forums.

I am quite sure as you progress through this journey, you will quickly find, as others have that there is a whole lot more to this than what meets the eye.

Safe travels

Thanks for wishing safe travels. You too. I hope what I said makes some sense.

Trucks are governed more fore the fuel economy than to regulate speeding was what I always thought