To 34 Or Not To 34, That Is The Question!

Ugh. As I mentioned, it's not something I do every day. Obviously, I run as hard as I can to maximize my clock. It's a way to maintain recap hours if you wind up on a load where you're going to wind up early but not so early that you can take a 34 and the appointment is a scheduled appointment that can't be changed. You're already going to be sitting there and only had a few hours of driving that day but still have hours remaining. At that point, you're not losing hours by putting yourself on duty. You're using up the remaining hours of your day so that when those recap hours come back the following week, you have them available and you don't have to use it all up, you can roll some of the time over.

If you had 9 hours available and only drove 3, do you only want 3 hours coming back or 9?

Still makes NO SENSE.

I see what you're doing there - that you get back more hours - when that day falls off as the 8th day. But you LOSE those hours for the next 7 days.

The clock is still a ROLLING CLOCK - even with re-caps that you gain back when the 8th day falls off. If you HAVE THE HOURS, but don't use them - you don't LOSE/FORFEIT them.

The 70 Hour HOS Clock - is a ROLLING/SLIDING WINDOW.

So - for example - if you GAIN 10 hours at midnight (and that's the ONLY TEN HOURS YOU HAVE THAT DAY because you're running on "pure recaps"), but you only USE 3 HOURS that day. The REMAINING 7 hours, ARE STILL IN YOUR "70 BANK". So - if you get another 10 hours back again at midnight (and we're using 10 as just a "round number that makes the math easier to discuss), now you have THAT 10 (that you got back at midnight on the recap) PLUS THE 7 you didn't use that day. So now you have 17 HOURS AVAILABLE on your 70 for that day. Otherwise known as a FULL DAY PLUS.

So by doing it that day - you are no longer running on "pure recaps" - you have a full 11/14 to run with. The MORE TIME YOU SPEND OFF DUTY - the more of your 70 clock you "bank" - even if you ARE RUNNING ON RECAPS and choose to not do a reset.

I checked this with my old instructor (teaching at the local VoTech for 25+ years) - he said - yeah, you could do it that way (using all your hours), but then you'd never "bank" any extra hours on your 70 clock. You would perpetually be running on whatever hours you got back from the 8th day falling off (pure recaps).

For the new folks that are trying to figure this out (yeah - this thread got real confusing) - there are THREE RUNNING CLOCKS we deal with for HOS.

#1 - Drive Clock - you get 11 hours to drive in a day - THAT'S ALL - and that "day" STARTS - when you start your 14 hour clock. Once you have driven 11 hours (in that 14 hour window) you CANNOT DRIVE UNTIL YOU HAVE TAKEN A 10 HOUR BREAK.

#2 - On Duty Clock - you get 14 hours in a day - THATS ALL - to perform your 11 hours of driving, plus any other "on duty" responsibilities (fueling, pre-trip, load/unload, etc.). After you are PAST THE 14 HOURS - YOU CANNOT DRIVE UNTIL YOU TAKE A 10 HOUR BREAK (or do a split - which we're not getting into here). This clock also "rolls" in that - if you come ON DUTY at say - 11PM - it "rolls" into the next day (that starts at midnight).

#3 - The 70 Hour Clock - which gives you 70 hours of ON DUTY TIME (that is - DRIVING and On Duty/Not Driving COMBINED) in an 8 day period (including the current day). This clock is calculated using MIDNIGHT (not whenever you came on duty - this is a day-to-day clock). Once you hit the 70th hour On Duty (driving or not) you CANNOT DRIVE. You have to wait until midnight and you get hours back when the 8th previous day falls off. And you ONLY GET THE HOURS BACK that you used On Duty for that 8th day.

JJ Keller has a good article on using recaps: https://www.jjkeller.com/wcsstore/CVCatalogAssetStore/references/miscellaneous/recap-how-to-use.pdf

The way re-capping works in HOS - whatever hours you DO NOT USE - goes back into the "70 hour bank". So, if you "get back" 10 hours and only use 6 - you still have that 4 you didn't use in "the bank".

The way Robert describes the way he runs it, is not "technically legally wrong" - it is correct as far as HOS Rules go. It's just not perhaps the most efficient. But if it works for him - far be it from me to tell him he's wrong in doing it that way (for him).

What he's saying though, give the sense of - if you don't USE all the hours you get back - that you LOST THEM - and this is just NOT TRUE. If you SAVE THE HOURS (that is - go OFF DUTY as soon as legally practical), you will build your 70 Clock back up to the point where you NO LONGER HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL MIDNIGHT (when the 8th day falls off) to get those hours BACK and continue driving.

This had me picking at my bald spot, until I finally had to break down and call my old instructor. I'd hate to call someone wrong, when they aren't - and really like to totally understand the issue. I don't argue for the sake of arguing - but to bring clarification for everyone (including myself) that fins this confusing.

Rick

Sue, it's not milking the clock of you're assigned a load that gives you too much time to get there but not enough extra time to allow a 34, goes back to my example and an actual load I recently ran. It was a 900 mile trip that alloted almost 3 days to get there. The load could not be scheduled for an early delivery. Taking my time on Monday and Tuesday, I ran the hours I had available. Wednesday delivery was less than 10 miles from where I stopped Tuesday night and the scheduled appointment at 1600. My next pick up was on Thursday at 1100, less than 40 miles away. I left at 1530 for my 1600 appointment, was unloaded and gone at 1930. I arrived at my next pickup at 2030 (allowed on site parking) . I had 9 hours coming back to me on Wednesday, rather than only having my drive time to the receiver (20 minutes) and the hour to my next pickup, plus pre trip, post trip etc and only use 2.5 to 3 hours, I stayed on duty. Once I arrived at the next shipper , I left myself on duty until 2330 and then went in to sleeper mode. So now, rather than only having 2.5 hours coming back in 8 days, I have just over 8.5 to use. My schedule on the follow up load doesn't get effected and I still maintain consistent hours throughout the week. Running recaps isn't like running on your 70 and planning a 34, you want to maintain hours at that point and work your time wisely. Now you can argue that letting those hours roll over bump the numbers for the next few days, which they will but in 8 days, you're stuck with a day of 2.5 hours and at 8 days out, most of the time you have no idea what load you'll be on.

Rick, I never said you lose hours. What I said, repeatedly, is that if you're going to successfully run recaps, you need to stay around that 9 hours give or take a day so that you always have good hours to run and won't force yourself into a reset that you may not want to take. On the flip side of the coin, sometimes you'll have to change things up to maintain that 9 hour number so you don't also stick yourself with a really crappy day. Yes, you're banking those hours because it's a rolling clock but you also have to think a week out in the process to make it efficient and rolling an hour here or there might bump up that bad day when it comes back around but then again, it might not.

My point was (and still is) that you can BANK the hours - or - (as you do) you can USE THEM and count on getting them back when the 8th day falls off. Since you can't plan your loads/runs 8 days in advance - I'd prefer to have the hours on TODAYS CLOCK and not wait until 8 days to get them back on a fall off.

And if that's how you like to plan your clocks - right on - it's not "wrong" in the technical/legal sense.

But if you stay OFF DUTY as much as possible - instead of leaving your On Duty/70 Clock running when you don't need to - you will ALWAYS HAVE MORE AVAILABLE TIME - and you won't to wait until midnight to get more hours back (as in, having to STOP and wait, because you're out of hours).

We're just not going to see each others point here (I see yours, but you just don't appear to be seeing mine) - so I'm bowing out now. I just don't want newcomers to be given the impression that they have to run their clocks in such a fashion, that they're always worried about when they're going to hit their 70 and have to stop. If you utilize your On Duty clock efficiently, you should ALWAYS HAVE HOURS on it, plus the hours you get back.

Most solo drivers - will take the option to DO A RESET - if their clocks are so low, that they are not getting nearly a full day of drive time available to them. Now you can argue that letting those hours roll over bump the numbers for the next few days, which they will but in 8 days, you're stuck with a day of 2.5 hours and at 8 days out, most of the time you have no idea what load you'll be on.

Sigh - I'm done...

Rick

Been listening to road dog on xm and from what I gather, there is a motion that is being presented to do away with the 34 hour restart. Just wondering what your thoughts on that are?

I don't think it will take away the availability of doing a 34 hour restart, just take away the requirement to do one.

Some of the drivers I've heard say that you actually can run more miles doing a 34 as opposed to running on recaps. Is this true?

I can see where it would be, because if you are running in recaps and you have a couple of days where you are only getting back 4 or 5 hours, it would limit the amount you can run, and having done the restart would give you more hours.

The thing is, if you are getting back 10 or more hours each day, that's almost a full clock of drive time. You'd only be losing about an hour of driving each day maybe an hour and a half due to pre trip time being added in.

Is it worth it at that point to do a restart or just keep rolling recaps?

I guess the question I'm asking is, when do you decide to do a 34 and when do you decide to run recaps?

I only run recaps if I absolutely have to. I prefer to beat my 70 to death as soon as possible, then take a 34.

Firstly, because being ahead of schedule means that repowers are more likely. I like getting miles without having to spend any time at a shipper or receiver.

Secondly, because I like having a full day off every few days to write and relax.

I see the point Robert is making. I was talking with my dispatcher a couple weeks ago about the different ways I can run my clock on this fleet and he actually suggested this as a possible option--said one of his drivers does it. The point is not to maximize your 70 in this particular case. Obviously, you aren't maximizing your 70 if you are spending extra time On Duty Not Driving unnecessarily. It's just a way to manage your clock to ensure you always have the same amount of time coming back each day.

I don't know what type of gig Robert is doing, but I don't think doing what he's suggesting would have worked when I was doing otr reefer. My runs were typically luck of the draw--I got what I got, no particular rhyme or reason to it, and they were usually live loads and unloads. On the dedicated account I'm on now, this would work. Almost all our loads are drop and hook and have a huge drop window so I don't have to rush unless I want to or the planners have me stacked. So I really could work about 8.5 hrs every day. Like Robert said, you'd only use this trick every once in a while.

In my case, if I had a short day and the planners saw that I had lots of extra hours on my 70, they might give me a load that I have to run harder just to get it there on time. Then the next week I'd have only a few hours coming back and might have to take a reset. Nothing wrong with a reset. Just, some of us really prefer to run on recaps. If the planners on my account see that I have a full 70, they might try to burn it all up in 6 days instead of spreading it out over 8.

For us it would indeed be milking the clock. We are expected to give a realistic eta upon being loaded or hooked to a load regardless of the "scheduled" delivery time. If the consignee is open when we will arrive, cool beans, they will reschedule our appointment time for the earlier arrival...if consignee is closed, theyll have us drop it at a drop yard nearby and have a local/hub driver deliver it as originally scheduled.

We are never expected to sit around. I completely get what Robert has been saying, but i really dont understand the concept of sitting around and not having loads to run. Robert never did answer my question about what he puts in for "remarks" when he does that, or what, if anything DOT or compliance has said about it.

Like Rick, im out of this conversation.. Dont see any real value in it at all.

Sorry Sue, I did indeed miss that part. In regards to comments, the day I did it this last time is the day I used in my example and no comments were needed. I didn't edit or change anything. I didn't lose out on a load either. If you look back at what I talked about and why I did it, I was already at the receiver and didn't deliver until the following day. There wasn't enough time to get in a reset and by the time my delivery was finished up, I made my run to my next pickup. It was a late afternoon delivery, my next pickup was only an hour away and midnight was fast approaching. I didn't cost myself any hours, I didn't lose out on any hours, I didn't miss out on a potential load. What I did do was turn what was going to be a short day because of the delivery time into a normal day. That way, in another 7 days when I see those recap hours come back through the rotation, I have 8.5 available, not 3. I arrived at the receiver for that stop Tuesday night, the delivery was scheduled Wednesday afternoon and there was no rescheduling it.

Keep in mind that if I only have five hours on my clock.,. It is the last day so only once a week. It doesn't happen often cause when I get low on hours he'll give me a load out of a meat plant that takes forever to load. By the time the load is done my hours are back and I'm rolling for a couple thousand miles. I actually like having shorter days once in awhile.

If you head into a terminal for truck or trailer repairs I can grab a 34 much more easily. But my loads never have enough time on them to get a 34. So I'm always rolling.

Yep, Tyson doesn't like them either. They will give you a short run or give you a plant to plant transfer with like a 3 day delivery for 800 miles.

I've heard some drivers run their clock out on purpose. I don't understand that personally.

I think everyone's situation is different depending on size of the fleet and the freight type. It's like comparing a drop and hook van driver and a temp control driver when talking about 8/2 split sleeper. But that's for a different thread!

My FM doesn't allow them. If I have five hours left on my 70 he wikk run me that five hours then get my hours at midnight.

Only get 34/on home time