HOS Brain Teaser For Fun

Didn’t pay attention much in Schneider orientation? Unless they drastically changed the program from the time I went till the time you went they spent a week going over HOS. This is basic stuff.

FMCSA's guidance specifically lists fueling:

Chief, I can’t find anything in my FMCSA Green Book Pocketbook about pre/post trip inspection time periods. Page 419 deals with inspections under section 392.7. Does logging these inspections fall outside of FMCSA rules and are left to each company to establish their own requirements? And if a LEO inspects a driver’s logs, what is he looking for in regards to pre/post trip?

Seriously? You might wanna put down that shovel you're digging with. :)

Just asking an honest question, Steve. I’m just trying to learn.

Thanks Bird one. Yeah I did pay attention while training at Schneider. I think that is one reason 13 students started, but only 4 of us finished. But I don’t recall a full week spent on HOS training. Did you go through Schneider training?

Yes I did. Week 3 was nothing but Elogs and hos. It was made abundantly clear that things like fueling your truck needs to be on duty. No grey area.

I had asked about the fueling being on duty because we didn't go over much of our logs in school, nor training, just enough to fulfill basic requirements. I appreciate the info for sure.

BK asks:

FMCSA's guidance specifically lists fueling:

Chief, I can’t find anything in my FMCSA Green Book Pocketbook about pre/post trip inspection time periods. Page 419 deals with inspections under section 392.7. Does logging these inspections fall outside of FMCSA rules and are left to each company to establish their own requirements? And if a LEO inspects a driver’s logs, what is he looking for in regards to pre/post trip?

You referenced 392.7, but section 396.11 contains more detail regarding vehicle inspections.

Section 396.11 contains the detailed inspection requirements, states that is must be done at the "completion of each day's work," and a written report must be prepared. But then says that no written report is required if the driver finds no defects.

Thus, really the regulations require a "post-trip" rather than a pre-trip. But this is where the gray area arises.

I will generally do a more detailed inspection at the end of my drive shift, but not always. I always at least do a "walk-around" in the morning looking at tires, lights, and any fluids on the ground. But I'm always doing "inspections" of my equipment during the day. And I log some vehicle inspection time during each day. If I'm fueling during the day, I will log both fueling AND vehicle inspection. I'll do an inspection after the hoses are in the tanks. I may do an inspection at a rest area. I can make my sandwich wrap, then get out and perform an inspection while I'm eating my sandwich wrap. logging 10 minutes of vehicle inspection time.

The bottom line, is you must 1) inspect your equipment regularly, at least once each day and 2) log the time you spend inspecting your equipment.

BK asks:

FMCSA's guidance specifically lists fueling:

Chief, I can’t find anything in my FMCSA Green Book Pocketbook about pre/post trip inspection time periods. Page 419 deals with inspections under section 392.7. Does logging these inspections fall outside of FMCSA rules and are left to each company to establish their own requirements? And if a LEO inspects a driver’s logs, what is he looking for in regards to pre/post trip?

You referenced 392.7, but section 396.11 contains more detail regarding vehicle inspections.

Section 396.11 contains the detailed inspection requirements, states that is must be done at the "completion of each day's work," and a written report must be prepared. But then says that no written report is required if the driver finds no defects.

Thus, really the regulations require a "post-trip" rather than a pre-trip. But this is where the gray area arises.

I will generally do a more detailed inspection at the end of my drive shift, but not always. I always at least do a "walk-around" in the morning looking at tires, lights, and any fluids on the ground. But I'm always doing "inspections" of my equipment during the day. And I log some vehicle inspection time during each day. If I'm fueling during the day, I will log both fueling AND vehicle inspection. I'll do an inspection after the hoses are in the tanks. I may do an inspection at a rest area. I can make my sandwich wrap, then get out and perform an inspection while I'm eating my sandwich wrap. logging 10 minutes of vehicle inspection time.

The bottom line, is you must 1) inspect your equipment regularly, at least once each day and 2) log the time you spend inspecting your equipment.

Never argue with a lawyer. It’s too expensive and futile. Lol

This has been a lively and interesting discussion with a lot of good information shared. I agree with the experienced drivers that on duty times for fueling and trip inspections need to be shown on your logs. I wanted to get in on this discussion earlier, but I was kind of pre-occupied with some other things while it was going on. I just wanted to point out a couple of my own observations. Hopefully this whole conversation will be helpful to some new drivers who are learning their way around some of the issues that came up in this conversation.

The big thing that stood out to me was this statement from Bruce...

With my company, I’m allowed to fuel off duty. And I didn’t log my inspections because even though I did them, I didn’t want to use clock time up. As it is, I made the appointment with 15 minutes to spare. Now before anybody gets their Fruit of the Looms in a twist, this was not typical of what I do. Normally I do log the pre/post trip inspections. But my company is OK with this happening once in a while, so I did it on this trip.

That seemed so bizarre to me, but I got it. Let me explain...

I have some fellow drivers on my dedicated account who often make statements similar to this. They might tell me our company is okay with them using PC to advance their load, or they might even say it is okay with our company to break the log book rules as long as it allows them to make their app[ointments on time. NONE OF THAT is okay with the company.

Somehow they have gotten away with these things or perhaps they had a frustrated dispatcher who encouraged them to do so just to get the job done. They may have heard another driver tell them it is okay with the company to do such things, or maybe they have just never been chastised for such an action, so it seems alright to them. There can be a lot of reasons why a new driver misunderstands company protocol. It doesn't really matter what the reason, the driver is still the one responsible for knowing the rules and operating properly under them. I think Bruce was genuinely doing what he thought was correct. Thankfully some of you helped him out.

If something is "Okay" with your company you will see it in written form. They will have a policy declaring it okay. That is the only reliable form of communication in matters like this. Many dispatchers will ignore what they consider minor infractions as long as the driver is doing a good job. That is understood by most experienced drivers. The thing they also understand is that the same benevolent dispatcher will throw you under the bus without a moments regret if you have an accident or something seriously goes wrong while you are violating the rules. They will claim they warned you about that behavior and will deny any past willingness to allow you doing such things. That is life in the corporate chain of command. People look out for themselves. Unfortunately a dispatcher is willing to ignore some things you are doing if it benefits them. It is far better to understand the rules and still teach yourself how to be hyper productive while obeying them.

Here's a little information on why most experienced drivers log fifteen minutes for their pre-trip even though the FMCSA gives no guidance on how much time you should show on your logs. There are basically two reasons. The first is simply that it is a hold-over from the paper logs days when drivers could only log an event in fifteen minute segments. The other is that a good D.O.T. officer knows you can't do a proper pre-trip inspection in five minutes. If he sees you cutting corners he will probably teach you how he wants to see it done.

This has been a lively and interesting discussion with a lot of good information shared. I agree with the experienced drivers that on duty times for fueling and trip inspections need to be shown on your logs. I wanted to get in on this discussion earlier, but I was kind of pre-occupied with some other things while it was going on. I just wanted to point out a couple of my own observations. Hopefully this whole conversation will be helpful to some new drivers who are learning their way around some of the issues that came up in this conversation.

The big thing that stood out to me was this statement from Bruce...

With my company, I’m allowed to fuel off duty. And I didn’t log my inspections because even though I did them, I didn’t want to use clock time up. As it is, I made the appointment with 15 minutes to spare. Now before anybody gets their Fruit of the Looms in a twist, this was not typical of what I do. Normally I do log the pre/post trip inspections. But my company is OK with this happening once in a while, so I did it on this trip.

That seemed so bizarre to me, but I got it. Let me explain...

I have some fellow drivers on my dedicated account who often make statements similar to this. They might tell me our company is okay with them using PC to advance their load, or they might even say it is okay with our company to break the log book rules as long as it allows them to make their app[ointments on time. NONE OF THAT is okay with the company. Somehow they have gotten away with these things or perhaps they had a frustrated dispatcher who encouraged them to do so just to get the job done. They may have heard another driver tell them it is okay with the company to do such things, or maybe they have just never been chastised for such an action, so it seems alright to them. There can be a lot of reasons why a new driver misunderstands company protocol. It doesn't really matter what the reason, the driver is still the one responsible for knowing the rules and operating properly under them. I think Bruce was genuinely doing what he thought was correct. Thankfully some of you helped him out.

If something is "Okay" with your company you will see it in written form. They will have a policy declaring it okay. That is the only reliable form of communication in matters like this. Many dispatchers will ignore what they consider minor infractions as long as the driver is doing a good job. That is understood by most experienced drivers. The thing they also understand is that the same benevolent dispatcher will throw you under the bus without a moments regret if you have an accident or something seriously goes wrong while you are violating the rules. They will claim they had warned you about that behavior and they will deny any past willingness to allow you doing such things. That is life in the corporate chain of command. People look out for themselves. Unfortunately a dispatcher is willing to ignore some things you are doing if it benefits them. It is far better to understand the rules and still teach yourself how to be hyper productive while obeying them.

Here's a little information on why most experienced drivers log fifteen minutes for their pre-trip even though the FMCSA gives no guidance on how much time you should show on your logs. There are basically two reasons. The first is simply that it is a hold-over from the paper logs days when drivers could only log an event in fifteen minute segments. The other is that a good D.O.T. officer knows you can't do a proper pre-trip inspection in five minutes. If he sees you cutting corners he will probably teach you how he wants to see it done.

Old school, that is a great comment. I learned a lot from it., so thank you. I’ve only driven for 14

months but I consider driving to be the equivalent of a 4 year college degree. There is so much to learn . We all need to keep learning. A

The bottom line, is you must 1) inspect your equipment regularly, at least once each day and 2) log the time you spend inspecting your equipment.

Does the inspection time have to be logged as something other than just 'on duty?' I mostly do meet-and-turn, and take my 30 minute break from driving after swapping trailers and before heading back. If the meet is at a company yard (not accessible to the public), I'll go into Yard Move while dropping my outbound trailer and hooking to the one I'm bringing back. The rest of the 30, while I'm not moving is just On Duty. That's when I do my Vehicle Inspection and complete the DVIR on the ELD. So the completion of the DVIR would line up with >15 minutes of time logged as On Duty (not driving) but the HOS log itself doesn't show any time as specifically inspection. On our ELD, Pre Trip/Post Trip is an option under On Duty - Yard Move but I haven't been selecting it.

Also, if I'm pulling multiple trailers on a single day, should I be logging separate inspections for all of them? These days I typically take one trailer out and bring another back. When I was doing LTL , it was the same except with doubles , and sometimes I'd do what my company called a 'via,' meaning I'd make an additional stop to deliver or get a trailer, so I'd be moving a fifth or even a sixth pup during a single shift. I'll do a walk-around to check lights and tires for every trailer I hook to, but have only been completing the DVIR for the one full inspection where I inspect the power unit too.

This has been a lively and interesting discussion with a lot of good information shared. I agree with the experienced drivers that on duty times for fueling and trip inspections need to be shown on your logs. I wanted to get in on this discussion earlier, but I was kind of pre-occupied with some other things while it was going on. I just wanted to point out a couple of my own observations. Hopefully this whole conversation will be helpful to some new drivers who are learning their way around some of the issues that came up in this conversation.

The big thing that stood out to me was this statement from Bruce...

With my company, I’m allowed to fuel off duty. And I didn’t log my inspections because even though I did them, I didn’t want to use clock time up. As it is, I made the appointment with 15 minutes to spare. Now before anybody gets their Fruit of the Looms in a twist, this was not typical of what I do. Normally I do log the pre/post trip inspections. But my company is OK with this happening once in a while, so I did it on this trip.

That seemed so bizarre to me, but I got it. Let me explain...

I have some fellow drivers on my dedicated account who often make statements similar to this. They might tell me our company is okay with them using PC to advance their load, or they might even say it is okay with our company to break the log book rules as long as it allows them to make their app[ointments on time. NONE OF THAT is okay with the company. Somehow they have gotten away with these things or perhaps they had a frustrated dispatcher who encouraged them to do so just to get the job done. They may have heard another driver tell them it is okay with the company to do such things, or maybe they have just never been chastised for such an action, so it seems alright to them. There can be a lot of reasons why a new driver misunderstands company protocol. It doesn't really matter what the reason, the driver is still the one responsible for knowing the rules and operating properly under them. I think Bruce was genuinely doing what he thought was correct. Thankfully some of you helped him out.

If something is "Okay" with your company you will see it in written form. They will have a policy declaring it okay. That is the only reliable form of communication in matters like this. Many dispatchers will ignore what they consider minor infractions as long as the driver is doing a good job. That is understood by most experienced drivers. The thing they also understand is that the same benevolent dispatcher will throw you under the bus without a moments regret if you have an accident or something seriously goes wrong while you are violating the rules. They will claim they had warned you about that behavior and they will deny any past willingness to allow you doing such things. That is life in the corporate chain of command. People look out for themselves. Unfortunately a dispatcher is willing to ignore some things you are doing if it benefits them. It is far better to understand the rules and still teach yourself how to be hyper productive while obeying them.

Here's a little information on why most experienced drivers log fifteen minutes for their pre-trip even though the FMCSA gives no guidance on how much time you should show on your logs. There are basically two reasons. The first is simply that it is a hold-over from the paper logs days when drivers could only log an event in fifteen minute segments. The other is that a good D.O.T. officer knows you can't do a proper pre-trip inspection in five minutes. If he sees you cutting corners he will probably teach you how he wants to see it done.

I'll make a standing bet that is valid through this friday.

For everyone who shows me a Qualcomm message to dispatch confirming a conversation that dispatch told you to log fueling off duty and a response message from dispatch saying 10-4 or other indication of agreement, I'll pay 10 bucks.

James I personally just put it to On Duty while doing my hooking/dropping and pre/post trip.

Yes you need to log or fill out pre/post for every trailer you connect to. I've had days I have 9 trailers listed if I'm just moving stuff around town, and also filled out the electronic DVIR for each.