Massive Layoffs At UPS A Big Win For The Union!

I consider myself to be indifferent to unions, but I think it's disingenuous to point to UPS as the standard. They're more of an exception.

Their relationship with the teamsters goes back over a 100 years. UPS is the advertising the union uses to try to recruit new employees. They're also the exception because everything from benefits to retirement is handled in house. They also have no competition. It's just UPS, FedEx and USPS.

The teamsters typically use central states funds, which was almost tapped out until the butch Lewis act went into effect. Our tax dollars bailing out another major fund.

Yellow employees were also teamsters. They were the lowest paid employees in the LTL sector, their equipment was trash and they took a 15% pay cut so corporate could buy more companies to build in an expedited way. In the end the relationship between Sean O'Brien and Darren Hawkins soured so much that they were spatting on Twitter like teenage girls. In the end, Yellow went under and from the people that I know that worked there, the union is no where to be found.

So the money will now go where it belongs, to the workers, who banded together to make sure management didn't abuse the company's money.

UPS has enough money to fund the new contract. This was just a move to keep their bottom line in tact to appease the shareholders. The union employees won't be getting anymore than what they would already get.

By the way, football players have both a union for all players and agents for each player. Do you know what NFL players would make if they didn't have an agent or a union? Probably $25/hour.

The WNBA has a union too and they make 100k a year. I think these numbers are tied to demand and butts being in seats.

My ideal for a union would be a drastic departure from the existing structure

I really have no idea if that system would work or not. If you asked me if volunteer systems would work for fire departments, I'd think that was nuts, but it works. So I really don't know.

What I do know is that rejecting unions on the premise that they're corrupt or may become corrupt is kind of a head-scratcher to me. The idea that anyone would rather go it alone as an isolated individual against a united front in management seems delusional at best, unless you are in such high demand you can write your own ticket. For the other 99.9999% of the workers, you need a united front, or management will give workers the bare minimum to keep enough workers around.

Thank you Brett for putting it so eloquently and straightforward. I've said it for years that the problem with most places is bloated and superfluous management collecting huge pay packages while producing very little. Many organizations have 3 managers doing the job where 1 would suffice . I see this in the public arena quite a bit Top heavy companies and organizations looking to cut labor costs when it's really the boy's club at the top which cause the bleeding.

Bloated and superfluous management, indeed! Our government is the same way. These bureaucracies are inefficient and ineffective.

UPS has enough money to fund the new contract. This was just a move to keep their bottom line intact to appease the shareholders.

Of course it was a move to keep their bottom line intact. That's exactly the point. Management was bloated and absorbed more than their share of the company's funds. The union took back some of that share for the workers, and the company was forced to cut back on management. That's how it's supposed to work.

I don't hear one single person saying, "UPS is in trouble now. They need every manager they can get!" That's because we all know that management teams become bloated and take more than their fair share of the pie over time.

The union employees won't be getting any more than what they would already get.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. The union got their massive raise back in August, and these cuts in management are a reflection of that.

I'm kind of surprised I'm not hearing any optimism about this situation at all. I know many of you have taken an anti-union stance, so I guess you're not too excited about celebrating a union victory. If you go to any bar in America at 5:00 on a weekday, you'll find it packed to the roof with workers complaining about unfair pay and practices. But when the union gets a huge win for the workers, you guys rain on their parade, brush it off as "an exception," and point out more reasons why unions are bad.

Well, I'm thrilled for the workers. For things to improve, people must understand the difficulty of isolated workers trying to get fair pay and treatment from a united front in management who is in it for themselves. Yes, some management teams are great and genuinely care about fair pay and treatment for their workers. You likely wouldn't need a union at such places. But I can show you a long list of charts and statistics that demonstrate clearly what has happened over the past 50 years when managements were no longer held accountable. It's painful and frustrating, to say the least.

I know many of you have taken an anti-union stance, so I guess you're not too excited about celebrating a union victory.

It's not really a victory for anybody else and there are plenty of rank and file union members that are also suffering through this. It's just not reported because it's not a "massive layoff" and UPS does this all the time.

Worcester, MA, Warwick, RI, Portland, OR Swan Island and a few other buildings have had their sorts cut. Change of operations, follow the work or get laid off indefinitely. Sucks for those teamster package handlers, but it's not in the news.

I don't hear one single person saying, "UPS is in trouble now. They need every manager they can get!" That's because we all know that management teams become bloated and take more than their fair share of the pie over time.

I've never heard anybody say UPS is in trouble, ever. They'll always do what they have to do to appease their shareholders, like any other publicly traded company.

Those management numbers probably got inflated due to the e-commerce boom of 2020. Their volume has been on a steady decline with inflation and the economy being what it is. They're effected same as ever other company and they're making the necessary changes.

They even over hired feeder drivers. Those bottom 10-15 percent truck drivers are sitting at home by the phone everyday hoping for a call. What good is 45/hr if you're getting no hours?

If you go to any bar in America at 5:00 on a weekday, you'll find it packed to the roof with workers complaining about unfair pay and practices.

That's not my style and I don't like people like that. They're the equivalent of terminal rats. Complaining about stuff within your control, wasting money at a bar that you can be using to improve your situation.

I've never been one to stay at an employer that makes me miserable and definitely never stay at one that makes me waste money at a bar.

I do what FedEx asks me to do and they pay me what I agreed to be paid for doing it. Nothing more, nothing less. If the day ever comes where I feel it's not worth what they're offering, I'll move on. No harm, no foul.

I'm kind of surprised I'm not hearing any optimism about this situation at all.

You shouldn't be. It doesn't matter to anybody outside of UPS.

Like I said, they're the exception. The poster child of the teamsters, the star of the show. UPS is Tom Cruise and every other teamster company is the extra eating at the restaurant, just before the fight scene.

They always say look at what we got for UPS.... They never say look at what happened to Yellow, NEMF, PIE, Preston or the rest of that long list of union trucking companies that went under or got purchased by their competition. This isn't a bias, it's a fact.

But I can show you a long list of charts and statistics that demonstrate clearly what has happened over the past 50 years when managements were no longer held accountable. It's painful and frustrating, to say the least.

That's just how it is today and that's what it will continue to be as long as people make foolish decisions like getting 100k in debt for a degree in basket weaving and now you're desperate and have to take what you can get. It also ties in to the immigration program. People willing to work for a lot less drive down wages of unskilled labor. It's hard to find a competent, qualified CEO, but anybody willing to work can be a package handler. So those at the top move up and those at the bottom are crabs in a barrel fighting over scraps.

They always say look at what we got for UPS.... They never say look at what happened to Yellow, NEMF, PIE, Preston or the rest of that long list of union trucking companies that went under or got purchased by their competition

Ok, how many union companies went bankrupt even though their CEO was making under $1 million per year, with their top 10 executives making less than $50 million per year? I'd bet anything the answer is zero.

So once again, you have 10 people at the top who do almost nothing but make $100 million, yet it's the workers asking for a raise that bankrupts the company.

You're a sharp guy with most things, but I don't get your thinking here. How can you blame the union for failures at the company when the executives running the company into the ground are paying themselves $100 million per year? Not to mention, when they do bankrupt the company, they get massive bonuses, often in the tens of millions, as "severance packages," but I don't hear anyone crying foul about that, either.

I say this:

I can show you a long list of charts and statistics that demonstrate clearly what has happened over the past 50 years when managements were no longer held accountable. It's painful and frustrating, to say the least.

...and your reply is:

That's just how it is today

I see. So should everyone just shut up, take what little bit management gives them (when they come back from their Hawaiian trip or golf outing), and accept it?

That doesn't fly with me I can tell ya.

Banks, are you ok with the top 10 people making $100 million per year while the workers are barely getting by? Let me run this by you for fun.....how much cash do you think UPS is sitting on right now? How about this:

As of September 30, 2023, UPS reported having $7.27 billion in cash and cash equivalents according to their latest public earnings disclosure

That's right...over $7 F'in BILLION DOLLARS

The workers have to fight with these clowns to get a raise when the top execs are making $100 million, the company is sitting on $7 billion in cash, and you say, "That's just the way it is."

Well, I'm not happy with the situation, and I'd like to see the middle class return to this country and be able to live comfortably without going $500k into debt. We can keep American jobs here, including manufacturing jobs, and we can have a prosperous middle class at the same time, but not if a massive portion of the money that corporations make gets fed to a handful of people at the top. Here's a reminder of how things have changed over the past 50 years:

I can see the corporate propaganda has worked well on people. Even the workers will rain all over your parade if you try to stand up for them, and they'll even tell you, "That's just how it is today."

They have successfully softened most of the men in our society to the point they have no fight left in them. They shut up and accept the mistreatment they get. That's pretty sad.

Well, I'll continue to talk up this topic because I'd love to see things change, and I'm not one to sit quietly by and say nothing. I don't know how that change will ultimately happen, but it starts with waking up the lions to lead the way.

Banks, I don't know if you're okay with any of this or not, but you don't seem upset by any of it, and you haven't proposed any ideas for change. So, what do you think? Do you think anything can or should be done about this?

Ok, how many union companies went bankrupt even though their CEO was making under $1 million per year, with their top 10 executives making less than $50 million per year? I'd bet anything the answer is zero.

Darren Hawkins made 2M a year and the execs at Yellow were between 500k and 1.5M a year. Not knocking it out of the park compared to what their peers make.

So once again, you have 10 people at the top who do almost nothing but make $100 million, yet it's the workers asking for a raise that bankrupts the company.

I never said that.

However, the union does have some control over operations. That's where the problem, in my opinion, comes into play. You know, as well as I do, that fluidity is necessary in this industry. We also know that the union is a bureaucracy and the motto of any bureaucracy is "hurry up and wait". It doesn't bode well for things that have to get done.

Well, I'm not happy with the situation, and I'd like to see the middle class return to this country and be able to live comfortably without going $500k into debt.

I would too, but I'm also a realist. That's not going to happen unless people are willing to make decisions that make them immediately uncomfortable. Same goes for the country. Can't keep kicking this can down the road to be dealt with later.

How can you blame the union for failures at the company when the executives running the company into the ground are paying themselves $100 million per year? Not to mention, when they do bankrupt the company, they get massive bonuses, often in the tens of millions, as "severance packages," but I don't hear anyone crying foul about that, either.

The execs at Yellow weren't anywhere near 100M per year.

I aslo never said I was ok with their severance packages. It should go without saying that it's wrong, but that isn't what was being discussed.

I see. So should everyone just shut up, take what little bit management gives them (when they come back from their Hawaiian trip or golf outing), and accept it?

I broke down the reasons for this in the post you quoted. To make it clearer, when everybody was making money hand over first in 2021 and 2022, what did they do? They bought cars and went further into debt. Not only did they buy cars, they paid "market adjustment" fees up to 20k. At what point does personal responsibility come into play here? In 2023 their credit is destroyed, interest rates are high and they're making no money.

Banks, are you ok with the top 10 people making $100 million per year while the workers are barely getting by? Let me run this by you for fun.....how much cash do you think UPS is sitting on right now?

I'm not ok with that, but I understand that there's nothing I can do about that. Instead, I focus on doing what I have to do to better my position.

I'm very aware of how much money UPS has. They're my employers direct competitor, so I pay attention to what's happening there the same way I pay attention to every other LTL company. That's how I know feeder drivers are sitting at home and UPS is shutting down smaller sort buildings and moving those packages to automated sort buildings.

I can see the corporate propaganda has worked well on people.

That's disingenuous and borderline insulting. I don't need a union to defend me or negotiate on my behalf. I'm capable of thinking for myself and seeing the facts the way I see them.

They have successfully softened most of the men in our society to the point they have no fight left in them. They shut up and accept the mistreatment they get. That's pretty sad.

I'm not soft or mistreated and I have no problem standing up for myself. I've done it on a regular basis to the point where I created an email address to correspond with the brass at FedEx freight and when I have an issue with a supervisor or anybody else, a conversation is had.

Banks, I don't know if you're okay with any of this or not, but you don't seem upset by any of it, and you haven't proposed any ideas for change. So, what do you think? Do you think anything can or should be done about this?

I'm not upset about it. I don't sit at home comparing my pay to what Raj makes. I get ahead by doing the best I can with what I have.

Nothing will change as long as individuals continue to put themselves behind the 8 ball. I remember when McDonald's was a job for seniors and high school kids. Today you have 30 year olds demanding 20/hr or a liveable wage for a job that was never meant to be a career. It starts with personal accountability and people wanting to better themselves instead of being corporate America for some dimes.

Businesses don't care about you. They care about revenue and profits. You bring in a union and a business will shut down and move south or overseas.

XPO had a union in one of their Florida buildings, Albany and a NJ building. XPO would make negotiating impossible. Those employees saw their counterparts getting raises and making more money. Eventually, they decertified and got put on the pay scale. They lost out on the raises before that.

Estes had a building vote in the teamsters. They shut that building down and then reopened it 18 months later with a whole new staff.

FedEx freight had 1 building that was union in Stockton. Same as XPO, FedEx wouldn't play ball. That went on for about 8 years and then FedEx shut the building down. Imagine losing out on 8 years of raises, just to get shutdown.

And the worst part is the Yellow employees. Those guys are struggling to find work because nobody wants to hire a teamster. Of course, they won't say that but that's what it is. The union they paid dues to for 10,20, 30 years is no where to be found to provide help with placement.

If things are to get better people have to want to be better. McDonald's doesn't pay 15 an hour out of the kindness of their hearts. That's the least they can pay to get people to walk in the door. Why should they pay more? They take advantage of those with no other options, but those with no options are in that position by their own doing.

That's not going to happen unless people are willing to make decisions that make them immediately uncomfortable. Same goes for the country. Can't keep kicking this can down the road to be dealt with later.

I agree wholeheartedly

At what point does personal responsibility come into play here?

Always. At all times. But being financially responsible in your everyday life is not the issue we're discussing. The issue is unfair pay practices.

So, whose responsibility is it to ensure workers get their fair share and get treated properly? You said:

I'm not ok with [the top 10 people making $100 million per year while the workers are barely getting by], but I understand that there's nothing I can do about that

So it isn't going to be you, and that's ok. You don't have to be the guy to do it. Maybe you're in a position where your earnings and treatment are fair. But someone almost certainly did take it upon themselves to do something about it in the past, and now you're reaping the rewards for it. Fortunately, they didn't think there was nothing they could do about it and did something about it.

In fact, why does FedEx pay their drivers so much better than most places would? Because they have to compete with the union wages at UPS. So you're reaping the benefits of their union without even being part of it.

I drove dump trucks at one time, and many of the competing companies were union. We weren't union, but we made the same wages and had the same benefits. The owner of our company had run the company for about 30 years and never hesitated to admit that he matched union wages and benefits to keep the unions out of his company. We all benefited from the work of the unions, even though we weren't part of it.

You bring in a union, and a business will shut down and move south or overseas.

That has to change as well. Laws were written that gave corporations too much power and too many benefits for themselves, and they've used it to hurt this country. Big corporations should not have the ability to quickly fold up and move jobs overseas to save some money on labor at the cost of losing the middle class in this country. This is a wildly complex aspect of this topic, but Trump talked about this constantly. He used his influence to convince many corporations to keep their workers here and even move some production back to this country. This has to continue.

I don't mind anyone saying, "Well, something needs to be done, but I'm not the one to take the lead on it." That's not a problem. Most people are not leaders. I just don't like to hear people say, "There's nothing I can do about it" and at the same time denounce unions. You can't change it on your own, but you don't want to join forces with people to make change, either?

I'm enjoying this conversation, by the way. These are important discussions that I feel we need to keep returning to. Things have gone the wrong way in this country for a long time. We're either going to save it, or lose it, and saving it starts with discussions like this one.

Banks, I respect your take on this, as I do the others in this conversation. I'm used to being on the opposite side of most people on most topics, so I don't mind that. We have a lot of anti-union people here, and I welcome all opinions. Fortunately, we have an awesome group of people here who are capable of handling this type of discussion, so I always enjoy it.

If things are to get better people have to want to be better. McDonald's doesn't pay 15 an hour out of the kindness of their hearts. That's the least they can pay to get people to walk in the door. Why should they pay more? They take advantage of those with no other options, but those with no options are in that position by their own doing.

That's kind of a scary statement. In other words, if I'm in a position to take advantage of you, then that's your fault, so you get to suffer the consequences and I get to blame you.

In fact, Rockefeller and Carnegie and all of them used to have the same opinion about people. We're privileged, you're not, and that's your fault. So now I get to treat you any way I want and there's nothing you can do about it.

I looked this up just now - death rates in the job force:

In the early 20th century, death rates were extremely high, with estimates ranging from 20-30 deaths per 100,000 workers annually in the US.

Rates are much lower today, averaging around 3.5 deaths per 100,000 workers annually in the US.

So how did we go from, say, 25 deaths per 100,000 down to 4?

The dramatic decrease in workplace deaths highlights the positive impact of safety regulations, technological advancements, and increased awareness.

Safety regulations and increased awareness, you say?

How did we get those safety regulations, and who drummed up the awareness? Who decided that people were dying in crazy numbers at work because factories were unsafe and the management didn't care?

It certainly wasn't individuals working in isolation. We all know it was the unions that forced corporations and the government to protect the workers, pay a fair wage, and expect realistic working hours.

Personal responsibility is always important, but no matter how responsible you are, someone must still account for individuals and groups that would willingly take advantage of others and do harm. Unfortunately, some of those individuals wind up in positions of control over large groups of people. You can't just sit back and watch them take advantage of people and then blame the people they're abusing for it.

This is funny. As I was typing that last response, I got this text from a friend:

[at my workplace] they have too many supervisors, managers, and leader positions. Too many hands in the pot. You don't need a supervisor and a leader in the same department! The leaders always try to go over the supervisor's head and act like supervisors. It's so stupid!

I sure as hell would never take on a supervisor or managing position in this place🤣

Wow, bloated management you say? I've heard that a lot lately!

But being financially responsible in your everyday life is not the issue we're discussing. The issue is unfair pay practices.

It's an important part. What you tolerate is the base line for how people treat you. When you put yourself in a position of desperation and limited options, you're willing to tolerate a lot more. If employees are tolerating less, employees will have to offer more.

So it isn't going to be you, and that's ok. You don't have to be the guy to do it. Maybe you're in a position where your earnings and treatment are fair.

Fair point, but it was me at first. FedEx makes it easy to contact the executives. I had a lengthy conversation with the Senior Vice President of Operations of FedEx freight. I wanted them to stop using purchased transportation for truckload shipments while employees were on furlough and sitting at home. It was a productive conversation. I learned more about how FedEx determines what to send truck load and the discrepancies in costs. My argument was with record profits, they should be willing to eat the cost but I'm only one person. When I tried to get others to speak up and reach out to him.... Crickets. So fudge it then. Anytime I hear somebody complaining about contracted transportation I tell them, did you reach out to Jeff First? No? Then stfu.

Nobody wants to make waves, so I stopped wasting my energy and focus on it. I'm in a fortunate position where I don't need FedEx. I'm good, financially. I'm at FedEx because I like what I do, but I'm not taking up arms by myself.

In fact, why does FedEx pay their drivers so much better than most places would?

FedEx pays about the same as ever other LTL company. There's not really a lot of difference.

He used his influence to convince many corporations to keep their workers here and even move some production back to this country. This has to continue.

But it won't as long as they have to answer to big government and unions. It's too much bureaucracy red tape. In an ideal world, it's one or the other.

Most people are not leaders. I just don't like to hear people say, "There's nothing I can do about it" and at the same time denounce unions. You can't change it on your own, but you don't want to join forces with people to make change, either?

They can't make it change. Corporations have already learned how to push back on this and just like my example above, nobody is willing to make those waves. The teamsters have also pooped the bed with Yellow. Anybody paying attention to that fiasco knows they were just as responsible for that shutdown as the execs. It turned into a ****ing match that cost 30k people their jobs and in the aftermath those faithful teamsters are looking to their locals for help and getting no answers.

Why would anybody put their faith and livelihood in the hands of the union with the way that played out? Because UPS got a good contact? That's not good enough.

We have a lot of anti-union people here, and I welcome all opinions

I'm not antiunion... I'm indifferent. I don't care either way. I look at things through a nuanced lens and try to remove all bias. In this case, I have no bias. I know people that work for ABF and I know people that worked for Yellow. They're good people just trying to make it like everybody else.

I just don't think the union deserves praise because UPS deflated their management payroll. They got rid of salary employees and they're cutting hours of hourly employees as they move towards automation. Instead of having (for example) 100 people in a warehouse, it's now 75.

Fast food spots are doing it too. No more people at the counter, there's a kiosk. Better yet, use the app and get a free drink. The drink is cheaper than the employee, but people don't care because they got a free drink.

I don't say "that's just how it is" because I have no fight. I say it because everybody is out for themselves. This country is too divided for people to stand together. You'll never get 10 people on the same page, let alone thousands or millions. Unions are just another divisive topic.