Western Express Lease Purchase....thoughts???

Sorry, I had to delete the comment someone just left but I've emailed it to him with a chance to edit it if he would like. Stay tuned.

I just wanted anyone that spends time trying to read information about a potential opportunity to hear all sides of an argument for or against a sector of this industry. There are obviously very extreme mixed opinions on this subject and I will at least concede to the fact that not everyone will agree. The fact-finding portion of this discussion was to decide if lease purchase or owner operator was a good choice for someone, instead it turned into a mudslinging competition of Company driver versus Owner operator. No matter how much information and how many numbers have been posted on this blog, there are some people that will never believe what they cannot understand. I completely understand and accept that being a business owner is not for everyone, but to ignore that many, many, many people in this country can be successful business owners is just crazy!

Its kind of like saying Chocolate is the worst flavor of ice cream, YOU should only like Vanilla..... who should make that decision for you... someone else? or YOU?

Its kind of like saying Chocolate is the worst flavor of ice cream, YOU should only like Vanilla..... who should make that decision for you... someone else? or YOU?

Nobody's making any decisions for anyone. We're all giving our opinion on the matter and we've said what we've each chosen to do with regard to leasing versus being a company driver. But in the end people are going to make their own choices, and in fact some people will choose to lease a truck simply because we said they shouldn't. I don't mind a bit. I just want people to hear every side of it so they can decide what makes sense for them.

but to ignore that many, many, many people in this country can be successful business owners is just crazy!

To be clear, anyone can be a successful business owner. The question is a matter of how do you define "successful" as a business owner? To me, I define it as making considerably more profit than I would have as an employee of that business. And by considerably more I mean it has to be in proportion to the extra risk, work, commitment, and stress involved in owning your own business. You don't take on all of that extra burden without getting a return on it, the same way you don't make any kind of investment without getting a return on it.

Now your timing here is great because just a little over 6 hours ago Ernie said this in a topic called Lease Ops Everywhere:

I agree with most everything that has been presented here about leasing.

In the case of Prime (I was a lease op for them), it all depends on what you want out of the whole scheme of things. You are correct when you say that lease op's make about the same money as a company driver, I agree. But for me, it wasn't about the money so much as it was the little added freedoms you have as a lease op for Prime. I could fuel where I wanted, take whatever route I wanted, could turn down loads I didn't want and a few other little perks I can't remember. Now with those little things, they came at a cost. I saw that as an added incentive for me (but that's just me). I also had an FM out of Pittston PA terminal that I just couldn't get along with no matter what I did. I could not get transferred to another fleet as a company driver so my options were limited on what to do about the problem.

Bottom line, it's all about what you want out of your driving career as to what is or is not important.

Me being retired military and my wife having a good solid career has a lot to do with how I approach life when it comes to money issues.

So just because it was good for me does not mean it is good/right for you. That is a decision that only you can make for yourself.

Ernie

Now the line that matters to me is this:

You are correct when you say that lease op's make about the same money as a company driver

And that's it. That's my point. In my mind you don't start a business to make the same amount of money as an employee would doing the same job. It's what I've heard referred to as "Buying yourself a job." Now Ernie says it was worth it to him. Of course he's not doing it now and didn't go back to doing it when he had the option to so it must not have been that worth it to him.

But that's my view on business. Anyone can start any business they would like. Why would you go through all of that extra burden and get nothing out of it when you could have chosen a business where you could really set yourself apart and get a nice return on that investment? That's my point.

Now if you say it's not about money then what can I say to that? Nothing. To me a business is for making money, a hobby is for having fun. I'd spend a million dollars on a top fuel dragster if I had it to blow and would love every second of it. That would be an incredible hobby and I'm not against having fun or spending money.

So in that context let me restate my opinion. If you want to start a great business that makes a worthwhile profit then avoid buying or leasing a truck. But if owning a truck and cruising around the country hauling freight with it seems like a cool hobby then I would totally agree and you should go buy yourself one immediately if you like! I have no problem with that.

Just to clarify Brett, the only reason at this moment that I am not back at Prime as a lease op is because life (medical issues) at the moment are causing me to get back on an even keel before I make the final decision on that, not because I didn't enjoy what I was doing.

Again, it for me really isn't about the money so much as all the little freedoms that a lease op at Prime has compared to the company drivers. I loved my time at Prime and would have still been there had not things at home not changed requiring me to change with it.

So just because I left Prime does in no way reflect badly on why I left. I still can go back to the same fleet I was on when I left, so definitely did not burn any bridges there.

Just for the record, I have 2 very good offers to go back to Prime from drivers I know there. One is to team with one of my best friends there on the flatbed side and the other from a reefer lease operator that will set me up in a flatbed truck as a company driver with all the freedoms of a lease operator.

So I guess I must have done something right to have offers like that.

Ernie

I never said or implied you weren't welcome back at Prime. I said when it came time to go back to driving you chose not to lease a truck from Prime.

I just wanted anyone that spends time trying to read information about a potential opportunity to hear all sides of an argument for or against a sector of this industry. There are obviously very extreme mixed opinions on this subject and I will at least concede to the fact that not everyone will agree. The fact-finding portion of this discussion was to decide if lease purchase or owner operator was a good choice for someone, instead it turned into a mudslinging competition of Company driver versus Owner operator. No matter how much information and how many numbers have been posted on this blog, there are some people that will never believe what they cannot understand. I completely understand and accept that being a business owner is not for everyone, but to ignore that many, many, many people in this country can be successful business owners is just crazy!

Its kind of like saying Chocolate is the worst flavor of ice cream, YOU should only like Vanilla..... who should make that decision for you... someone else? or YOU?

Honestly, outside of math, the best reasons I've seen NOT to lease have been your non-answers to almost every straight question in this thread. To me, your posts are basically blatant advertising of the sort that usually results in me completely writing off a company because I know I'll never get a straight answer out of them. Then again, I'm also the sort who realizes that leasing is not a good option for her as a new driver and would already be saying no, so I'm not exactly your target audience.

It's not telling them they should eat vanilla ice cream, just that while the habanero ice cream might taste good now, it can burn your butt later.

The most compelling reasons I'm hearing to lease is the freedom it gives a person, not the profit it brings. Companies are probably putting these restrictions on drivers to make more profit. If it wasn't good for the companies to have these lease programs I don't think they'd have them.

I just wanted anyone that spends time trying to read information about a potential opportunity to hear all sides of an argument for or against a sector of this industry. There are obviously very extreme mixed opinions on this subject and I will at least concede to the fact that not everyone will agree. The fact-finding portion of this discussion was to decide if lease purchase or owner operator was a good choice for someone, instead it turned into a mudslinging competition of Company driver versus Owner operator. No matter how much information and how many numbers have been posted on this blog, there are some people that will never believe what they cannot understand. I completely understand and accept that being a business owner is not for everyone, but to ignore that many, many, many people in this country can be successful business owners is just crazy!

Its kind of like saying Chocolate is the worst flavor of ice cream, YOU should only like Vanilla..... who should make that decision for you... someone else? or YOU?

Honestly, outside of math, the best reasons I've seen NOT to lease have been your non-answers to almost every straight question in this thread. To me, your posts are basically blatant advertising of the sort that usually results in me completely writing off a company because I know I'll never get a straight answer out of them. Then again, I'm also the sort who realizes that leasing is not a good option for her as a new driver and would already be saying no, so I'm not exactly your target audience.

It's not telling them they should eat vanilla ice cream, just that while the habanero ice cream might taste good now, it can burn your butt later.

Ask me a straight question and I'll give you a straight answer...... I've answered a hundred others on this post.... and straight and to the point.

David M. posits:

I just wanted anyone that spends time trying to read information about a potential opportunity to hear all sides of an argument for or against a sector of this industry. There are obviously very extreme mixed opinions on this subject and I will at least concede to the fact that not everyone will agree.

Dave, I've been on Trucking Truth about two years. There are a few questions that always come up to the point we should have one fixed article we can direct people to. But that defeats the purpose of a forum. I'm glad you can concede the fact that people will disagree. It makes life exciting when there's real discussion!

The fact-finding portion of this discussion was to decide if lease purchase or owner operator was a good choice for someone, instead it turned into a mudslinging competition of Company driver versus Owner operator.

Making tha tchoice is an extremely, career shaping point! To Lease or not to lease. That is the Question. I think you explained mudslinging yourself a bit earlier: "There are obviously very extreme mixed opinions on this subject So be it. But you really think it's Us against Them? I believe there are active O-O's here that would recommend Company driving for the new people this web site is aimed at. As you set out, going Lease/Owner or Company driver needs a lot of discussion. Keep the mud in your own pocket. It's not needed here.

No matter how much information and how many numbers have been posted on this blog, there are some people that will never believe what they cannot understand.

But there are many people who will believe what they cannot understand! The speaker gets up, shows a video: A SHINY BRAND NEW KENWORTH 680 CAN BE YOURS!!! and they're ready to become their own boss (they think). That's the value of re-starting this discussion every few weeks. Nobody wants to read some boring article about leasing. Too many numbers. But a passionate debate from both sides is much more informative, and others can join in. (Keep the mud in your own pocket.)

I completely understand and accept that being a business owner is not for everyone, but to ignore that many, many, many people in this country can be successful business owners is just crazy!

What do you mean by successful? I went to a qualified source (not hearsay): US Small Business Administration. They oughtta know! Overall, 70 percent of new business survive for two years. 50 percent (Half) make it to five years. In transportation (that includes us!) 45% make it four years. That's less than the overall average. And that's all transportation.

Its kind of like saying Chocolate is the worst flavor of ice cream, YOU should only like Vanilla..... who should make that decision for you... someone else? or YOU?

I'm never going to tell you what flavor to like. I call this kind of belly-to-belly argument "Fords and Chevys". I suppose here we could call it "Peterbilt and Kenworth"! You can argue all day, but you won't change that many people's minds.

The most compelling reasons I'm hearing to lease is the freedom it gives a person, not the profit it brings. Companies are probably putting these restrictions on drivers to make more profit. If it wasn't good for the companies to have these lease programs I don't think they'd have them.

For a straight answer as Beth stated...... Freedom is one reason for being an Owner Operator. So is pride in ownership and flexibility to move between companies if needed. Next is the Profit one can make from their business if they do it correctly. An AVERAGE LP driver here (we are not talking about other companies just this one), as described in great detail on earlier pages, will take home between $1150 - $1550 per week (before taxes) after paying for all operating expenses (truck, insurance, permits, plates, tags, maintenance account, escrow, Qualcomm , etc...). The top 35% will take home $2000.00 - $2650.00 as a single operator (after all expenses / before taxes). Teams will take home $3150.00 - $4325.00 (after expenses / before taxes), and trainers will typically make more than a Top Earning single, but less than a team.

Taxes are actually a whole other ball game since the shear volume of write offs will topple the bulk of tax you would typically pay in as an employee driver. As an owner, practically everything you touch is a write off, not to mention all the current Federal tax codes geared toward helping small business owners get started and flourish in the post-bubble economy. You could better your information on that through organizations like the OOIDA , or your local tax professional.

SO FOR A STRAIGHT TO THE POINT ANSWER..... Driver A, from January 1st through August 14th has driven 87,112, for a total gross income of $138,880.00. His 35 truck payments this year to date would be $13,333.41, his fuel expenses to date this year has averaged $0.3211 cents per mile OR $27,971.66 in fuel expense, putting this owner at $97,574.93 (before taxes / after all other expenses). If he continues at a rate (discounted for holidays at 70%) for the remainder of the year, his income (before taxes) would be $131,726.16.

Please keep in mind maintenance is already included in the numbers above for a maintenance account AND an escrow account that allows for cash or early payoff of the truck.

Is this a get rich quick ploy, absolutely not!!.... Its hard work and takes dedication and a lot of planning to make your fuel come out correctly. Fuel is by far the largest contributors to one's success or failure as an owner. Hope this helps.