Western Express Lease Purchase....thoughts???

If your leasing a vehicle and the owner (a lease means you are not owner yet) does not cover repairs, what is the freakin' point????

This is a MUST READ for anyone thinking about a Lease to Own Program.

This is getting a little crazy calling names and creating conspiracy theories as to how companies are all bad and the people in them are evil..... That's just not true. There are people that are not cut out for lease and those that are. People that lease have a drive for more. Now that doesn't mean company drivers don't have a drive to succeed, they just don't want the extra work for the extra pay.

I want to put out some info that makes since for anyone. Being in a Lease to Own program means you are responsible for your ship, your loads, your fuel management and your financial well being. Most lease purchase plans popped up about 10 years ago and were mainly legitimate. Today 97% of the, are lease to lease programs with huge balloon pay offs, so ownership is not an option. That doesn't make them illegitimate, it just means you are renting a truck for 3 or 4 years with no financial return. Western's plan is a true lease to own where you actually own it at the end. That is the first huge advantage of the program, the second is there is no interest or inflated price for the truck.

Fact: lease to own is a way for a person to own a truck that doesn't have the ability to abstain financing on their own. Most dealerships require 20 - 30% down and 12 to 18% interest. Westerns International tractors vs. a dealership with 15% interest saves the contractor nearly $54,000. Not hype, just fact. If you have $23,000 to put down on a truck do it, but hold the entire risk of your credit in your hands..... If not let the company hold the risk and finance a truck to you that you otherwise are not qualified to have.

Fact: there are plenty of people that are very successful with lease to own programs. The people that are successful with lease to own programs are people that typically have a no die spirit and want more than a company driver position. Often, a business background is present and often a good understanding of mathematics. The contractors with the highest levels of success often keep great records and very organized. They plan their trips from start to finish and know their fuel stops the day before.

Fact: there are plenty of people that are not successful with lease programs. The people that do not exceed often blame everyone else BUT lack of planning is most often to blame. Fuel management is the single most important key to succeeding and if you are lost on planning fuel stops around price and not on when the truck is empty will never make it. If you do not want to plan ahead this is not a viable option for you.

Fact: if leasing to own was not a success to the overwhelming number of people that tried it, It would eventually fade away. The reason why Lease to Own programs will always be around is because they have people that succeed at them everyday.

Fact: in the 60's and 70's owner ops ran this country until financing became to difficult to obtain by individuals after 1979. In the 80's lease plans erupted to save these drivers in the work force that refused to be a company driver. The plans of the 80's were the original ICP plans (independent contractor plans), these plans sold trucks to their drivers I order to maintain their independence.

Fact: by the 90's most of the original ICP plans became known as Lease Purchase plans due to tax issues, but maintained a legitimate base of trucks to be sold. BUT by the mid 90's most of these plans had evolved into Lease to Lease plans and caused a huge skepticism of the newer style programs.

Fact: there are still programs today that resemble the original ICP plans but they are few and far between. Only about 4% of programs today offer Lease to Own plans without balloon payments and no added cost to the end result of ownership. Western Express wanted a program that revived the sector of the workforce that still wanted the independence of the original ICP plans.

Conclusion: Owner Operators are a unique fraternity of drivers that require more and want less hassle from company control. They succeed when planning and self discipline are present. They fail when they don't plan ahead and forget this is a job even if they are the CEO. Like any business in America, there will be winners and losers. Business owners rise up in America everyday and some plan well and some do not. If you plan well and treat this like a business you have the first steps of success. Lease to Own requires discipline and is only meant for those that want the extra work for the extra reward...... BUT it's not for everyone!

Aha, the truth comes out!

I'm not gonna gloat or anything, but I'm so glad you jumped into this little discussion that seemed to have gone away.

We try our best to dissuade folks from these programs because the numbers are disingenuous. But the folks who try and sell the drivers on it are mighty persistent. The little secret that should be obvious, but it succeeds due to the truck drivers ego is that the truck ownership is what is such a costly beast to the trucking industry. So when they strategize and try to figure out how to formulate a plan to cut that uncontrollable cost they just figure they can pass it off to the driver who thinks it would be cool to own his own truck. Then it's all gravy for the trucking company and mostly nightmare for the driver.

Welcome to the forum Saffe!

Being in a Lease to Own program means you are responsible for your ship, your loads, your fuel management and your financial well being.

David, would you PLEASE explain to me how that is any different from a company driver?

And good gosh what a misleading statement this is:

People that lease have a drive for more. Now that doesn't mean company drivers don't have a drive to succeed, they just don't want the extra work for the extra pay.

(Bold emphasis is mine)

David, what extra work does a lease operator do that a company driver doesn't do? I understand he has extra liabilities, but really, extra work? And is it not obvious to you that just because a person has what you call a drive for more, (I would more liken it, in this case, to an ego that is blinding them to reality) that it is quite possible, and in many cases turns out to be so, that they don't actually get more?

Come on now, at least be factual with us. All your bullet points which are conspicuously begun with the word "FACT", sound merely like talking points from a sales presentation - those are not facts.

David, I sincerely mean no disrespect, but as guy who has managed his own business for thirty years and owned more trucks than I care to remember, I know what the facts are. Also as a company driver at Western Express, and now a company driver in a dedicated flat-bed account for Knight Transportation, I doubt there's a lease operator in your fleet whose tax return could rival mine. I am one of those guys who has a "drive for more" as you put it, but I'm also a guy with years of business experience who can see right through the smoke and mirrors of the lease programs. I bring a whole new meaning to "running hard" wherever I am employed, and I continually mystify my dispatchers with my ability to manage my time within the encumbrances of the HOS rules.

Come on now, If you are heading up Western's lease program then you know it is a winning program for the company or you wouldn't be promoting it so strongly. I hope many of your drivers do really well at it, and some of them that I have spoken with say they are. But, my experience with most truck drivers is that they don't seem to be able to differentiate between revenues and profits. And if you ca't even figure that out you will be stealing from yourself for years before you begin to realize that you were getting the short end all along without even knowing it - and that is like a sucker punch to the gut when a person finally wakes up ad realizes what is happening to them. Unfortunately it usually happens about the time they are needing to replace the truck they have been paying on for the last several years.

I agree 100% with Old School.......as always because the man just plain knows his stuff.......

David, since you have so many "facts", I'd love to get another one from you....

Fact: there are plenty of people that are very successful with lease to own programs

When it pertains to net profit, what would you consider a successful year as a lease driver? And I mean the absolute bottom line profits after every expense has been taken out. How much profit would you have to make running solo for an entire year to be considered "successful" as a lease driver?

And don't waste anyone's time with relative terms like "do well" or "whatever suits you" or things of that nature. I want it in dollars and cents. What would you consider a successful year as a lease driver?

And I'd love to know where you get your figure from. If you know mathematics and you know business you should be able to come up with a solid number based on quantifiable facts, not just your feelings about what it means to be successful.

Simple answer but requires some discussion.... It's what you want out of it. If your goal is to make $1000.00 per week you can. If your goal is $1500.00 per week you can. If you want to make $1800.00 per week you can. Success is only an individual goal set by the person that sets it. Success varies by the person. Everything this blog is based on is variables of an individual's experience, not what you or I predetermine. If information is passed I wouldn't consider it "wasting anyone's time", I would consider it an additional point of view. Both of you have posted many posts condemning lease programs which is one opinion, and one which I have on multiple times said that I can appreciate. Leasing is not for everyone. There are plenty of people that are not good candidates for owning a business. BUT to say that people shouldn't try to own a business is anti-American. This country is based on men and women that wake up in the morning and try to make a better life for themselves and their families.

To old school, again, not a knock on company drivers, but LP drivers have to manage their money and fuel purchases that company driver do not. That doesn't make one bad or good. I'm not sure why you both have such animosity toward LP drivers or their choices, but I'll try to answer your questions. The fact portion says 1. LP programs do offer a way to own a truck to those that do not have $25,000 to out down on one, 2. Often those with business back grounds do earn 20 to 30% more than those that do not, 3. Some people do not succeed as a LP driver, 4. In the 60's and 70's OO did run this country, 5. In the 90's many of the LP programs did turn into lease/lease programs, and 6. Most programs today are lease to lease programs. None of the FACTs that I listed are indisputable by a reasonable person as opinion. As a flatbed driver for another company with a great tax return you sound very comfortable with your choice and I'm not taking that away from you, again just questioning why your choice is better than someone else's? You make it sound like if you are making the statement indirectly that if you run for Knight you will make more than another company and Brett makes continuous statements that if you are a LP driver you've made the wrong career choice. I know that's not what you both truly believe from reading your posts? Again, no disrespect, but there are plenty of LP drivers that believe in what they do the same as you both do and now you are just belittling their choice to be independent.

Brett, what I consider to be SUCCESSFUL is simple......... A person happy doing what they enjoy. An LP driver can find success driving when and where they want taking home $700 per week or $2100 per week. Some make more and some make less, but again if they are happy with their income and enjoy what they make who are you or I to judge? Not to sound too hypothetical but how do you measure a child's love? Or the best day of your life? How do you put a price on your daughters first school dance? All three can only be measured by the person that has the experience. I have met the happiest people living "off the land" with a net income of less than $5000.00 per year, and miserable executives with a net income well over a $1,000,000 per year...... I don't consider the executive to be more successful than the other because of a number. I consider both identically separate in circumstance. When I see someone that enjoys what they do whether their NET income is $45,000 or $120,000 I consider them both to be equally successful.

If I won the lottery tomorrow and my "net worth" skyrocketed would that make me more successful or happier? The answer is..... NO, There is not a number that encompasses success. To both of you, I appreciate the amount of discussion that we've had and if anyone out there reads this and it makes them THINK about their career choice I think we all win. I have been steadfast that LP is a particular sector of this industry and it is NOT for everyone and that Education and research is what blogs like this are about after all.

I agree 100% with Old School.......as always because the man just plain knows his stuff.......

David, since you have so many "facts", I'd love to get another one from you....

Fact: there are plenty of people that are very successful with lease to own programs

When it pertains to net profit, what would you consider a successful year as a lease driver? And I mean the absolute bottom line profits after every expense has been taken out. How much profit would you have to make running solo for an entire year to be considered "successful" as a lease driver?

And don't waste anyone's time with relative terms like "do well" or "whatever suits you" or things of that nature. I want it in dollars and cents. What would you consider a successful year as a lease driver?

And I'd love to know where you get your figure from. If you know mathematics and you know business you should be able to come up with a solid number based on quantifiable facts, not just your feelings about what it means to be successful.

David, you completely sidestepped Brett's specific question and just kept up your cheer leading mantra. I understand why... because that is the question that will back you into the corner and pin you down as to why we don't think leasing is a good way to go, especially for folks new to all of this, and that is the crowd that we try so hard to help here at this web site. To say "it is what you want out of it'" almost makes our point completely, which is: that as a company driver you create your own success. A truck driver always holds in his hand the cup that measures his/her success. It is an unfettered independent job where the performers come out on top, and the slackers go to internet forum boards and complain about how they have been done wrong by Big Trucking companies. We believe all of that belly aching by disgruntled drivers to be a bunch of B.S. I don't know if you realize it or not David, but I have been a staunch defender of Western Express here in these forums, and I continue to do just that even though I am no longer employed there.

I'm not sure why you both have such animosity toward LP drivers or their choices

Part of trying to help people make good choices as they enter this field always seems to have the bewildering effect of making people think we are antagonistic towards Owner/Operators. It is as far from the truth as it can be. We want everyone to be successful, very successful. I have also seen so many people get ruined in leasing programs, and for the life of me I can not make the numbers work for me no matter how I try, and I'm pretty good with numbers.

As a flatbed driver for another company with a great tax return you sound very comfortable with your choice and I'm not taking that away from you, again just questioning why your choice is better than someone else's? You make it sound like if you are making the statement indirectly that if you run for Knight you will make more than another company and Brett makes continuous statements that if you are a LP driver you've made the wrong career choice.

David, Everyone here knows that I loved my time at Western Express, I actually did very well there, and I encouraged many people to put a strong work ethic into their trucking career and they would be successful no matter where they worked - it has been a mantra of mine from the very beginnings of my trucking career. I always tell people that it doesn't matter whose name is on the doors of their truck, what matters is who is behind the wheel. I have no preference for Knight over any other company, they just happen to be where I am at as of now. The reference to the tax return is simply to get to the point of making a distinction between revenues and actual profits. I hear owner operators brag about all this money they are making and it seems to me that most of the time they don't even really have a clue as to how much of that money is really theirs, but I'll bet you their tax return tells the story. We in no way think others should have to make the same choices as we do, nor do we think ours are superior. In fact we have quite a few lease operators that participate in our forum. But we do feel compelled to sound the warning to unsuspecting rookies who think they are seeing dollar signs when they start investigating the lease programs.

BUT to say that people shouldn't try to own a business is anti-American

Brett and I both have a genuine entrepreneurial spirit about us, and it baffles me that you come to that conclusion from our conversations in here.

Old school.... I think we just turned a corner! Reading versus listening to a person's words can sometimes create a loss of intention in their meaning. I believe this site was set up to help others and I truly believe you both use your time to help others and it's working. This form of media has become one of the best tools for continued education in this industry. I think that what you guys are doing is great and helping others is always an admirable trait into ones character. I read you had a couple of years experience in trucking and Brett had several more, so I really like how between you both there is an experienced hand's opinion AND and a new comers opinion to balance the scales. My phrase might have come across a little harsh when I said you both were against LP programs, when in fact I meant that when I read your words it's sounded as such. Again, a problem with the inflection of the written versus the spoken word.

For the record though, I thought I answered Brett's question of what I thought a successful LP driver was? But, If a specific number is needed to satisfy your curiosity I would weigh closer to the higher take home as most people would, but I'm still a harsh believer that higher doesn't mean higher success, just a larger bank account. An average LP driver can take home $1100.00 to $1400.00 per week after expenses or approx $60-$70,000 annually. An above average (performance wise) LP driver can take home between $1550.00 to $2000.00 weekly or $85-$100,000 annually. Then well above average drivers will bring home above that. All three fit into unique categories of drivers also.

Driver 1 wants to be home every weekend, Driver 2 wants to be home every other weekend, Driver 3 wants to be home every 3-5 weeks. Driver 1 will never make over $100,000 to the house, but his trade off is he is home much more frequently which is his preference. Where Driver 3 would be upset if he took home $1350.00 per week and was forced to go home every weekend. Both situations are good, but have the wrong driver for the job. Driver 2 is a little more viable to go either way.

Further, you both were correct about the confusion some people have disassembling net and gross. For those that do not know, Gross is the term for the total amount the truck earned, where Net is the amount the contractor took home, and his Net LTO is his take home after taxes. If Driver 1 drove 2700 miles at a rate of $1.43 per mile his GROSS would be $3861.00. Next, take that minus his fuel cost of $1375.00 and his truck package of $750.00 equals his NET of $1736.00 to the house. Then we know that Uncle Sam is going to get his portion at a rate specific to the individual tax payer and his own tax situation. But again for illustration purposes, say Driver 1 has two kids and a wife that stays at home, his total tax rate after deductions should fall in the 15%~21% range. (Remember this is not the raw rate, but the estimated rate after deductions are added back in). So his LTO net (lease truck operator) would be between $1400.00 to $1500.00 give or take a little after taxes to his bank account.

I want to say thank you to you both, we have managed to create an entire class on LP off this single blog! Further, what I believe all three of us were intending to do was give more information to an inquisitive public.......it worked. I appreciate the questions and the responses even if we don't agree on some points doesn't mean I'm right or your wrong, it just means we are human and have differing opinions on some things. Keep up the good work guys.

David, I understand your comments about the drive to succeed and how it makes up the three different types of drivers you described - that is all true. I am an over achiever, who is retired from my thirty year career in my own custom manufacturing business, I get all the stuff about wanting more, and doing what it takes to achieve more. I decided to become a truck driver as a second career because it fit well with my abilities and understanding of how to succeed on your own.

I do however have a problem with thinking driver number three can make over 100,000 dollars per year. I am a go-getter, and trust me I understand what it takes to make a dollar. I do not know any truck drivers who are making that kind of money. I work intensely, most of the time I am on the road for six weeks at a time with just a few days off for home time, and I often take home twelve to fifteen hundred a week after my taxes and insurance payments are deducted. My dispatchers have always told me I'm one of their top earners. I am treated very well and often get my choice of loads because of that. I understand business overhead having been self employed for most of my life, and I just can not see a Lease Purchase driver making that kind of money, and I have tried to see it - I have worked out the calculations. It is just not sustainable over the years. There always comes that day of reckoning that has to be faced after a few years where you wake up and realize that you thought you were making all this money, but now your equipment is past it's productive life and the investment needed to continue will wipe out what seemed like all the progress you were making.

David, I understand your comments about the drive to succeed and how it makes up the three different types of drivers you described - that is all true. I am an over achiever, who is retired from my thirty year career in my own custom manufacturing business, I get all the stuff about wanting more, and doing what it takes to achieve more. I decided to become a truck driver as a second career because it fit well with my abilities and understanding of how to succeed on your own.

I do however have a problem with thinking driver number three can make over 100,000 dollars per year. I am a go-getter, and trust me I understand what it takes to make a dollar. I do not know any truck drivers who are making that kind of money. I work intensely, most of the time I am on the road for six weeks at a time with just a few days off for home time, and I often take home twelve to fifteen hundred a week after my taxes and insurance payments are deducted. My dispatchers have always told me I'm one of their top earners. I am treated very well and often get my choice of loads because of that. I understand business overhead having been self employed for most of my life, and I just can not see a Lease Purchase driver making that kind of money, and I have tried tok see it - I have worked out the calculations. It is just not sustainable over the years. There always comes that day of reckoning that has to be faced after a few years where you wake up and realize that you thought you were making all this money, but now your equipment is past it's productive life and the investment needed to continue will wipe out what seemed like all the progress you were making.

Well I have to say I feel for you but I think you need a new company. Alot of Schneider lease ops and O/O average over 2k a week net and 5k gross. Don't know anyone that drives for Landstar but have heard drivers claim that it better from there and I know a skateboarder that nets 3k+ a week whether his truck leaves the driveway or not but he has a dedicated company contract.

There are three things you can count on in life:

1) Death

2) Taxes

3) Owner operators lying about what they make.