Hours Of Service Question (Time At Shipper/Reciever)

Patrick wrote:

My company's policy is that we must show 15 min for live load or live unload. That is what they get. If at all possible I try to show up to the RCVR for a LU the night before. I start my 10 hr. I take care of the unloading while still on my break. If my 10 hr is up when I get the green light I will switch to on duty, not driving. Showing the status of pretrip and live unload. About time I get paperwork, close the doors etc. my 20 mins is up. 15 for live unload and 5 for pretrip. If my 10 hr isn't done I either go park outside the exit gate or in an empty parking spot near the gate, then finish my 10. Again, once my break is done, I will show my mandatory 20mins. Every minute of your 70hr counts. I always do my pretrip and postrip when "off duty". That way I can babysit my clock for the on duty portion.

I agree with something I once heard/read. This is the only profession will you will vehemently lie saying you are not working when you are.

Drive Safe and God Speed

Be careful if you are only logging 5 minutes for your pretrip. Not sure if that's what you are doing, not clear from your reply. DOT knows a thorough pretrip will take 15 minutes minimum, logging less than that is a risk if you are ever inspected.

My rule of thumb, log initial pretrip of 15 minutes, post trip of 5 minutes. That's what Swift requires and this also will keep DOT happy.

It is hard to explain the hos rules because they don't make sense and are not very flexible, but it's what we have to live with.

Ok. First thing is first. Being on line 1 or 2 stops your 11 and 70 clocks.

Now, as far as the 8/2 split, ANY break that is longer than 2 hours counts as a 2 hour break. So, if your at the shipper for 4 hours you can leave than take an 8 hour break to complete your split. Now remember, the 2 hour break must be taken on line 1 or 2, but the 8 hour break MUST be taken on line 2. If you take your 8 hour break on line 1 (in off duty) it's not going to calculate the split. Also remember that the 8/2 split break will never give you a full 14 hour clock.

So to answer your question, you should wait at a shipper for at least 2 hours in order to get some benefit from the time you are there, which in most cases you'll be there for more than 2 hours anyways. Put yourself in off duty the moment you enter the property so that all the check in time and paperwork stuff all gets counted in.

I can see the underlying concern you have which it's running out of time on your 14 at a shipper while your there getting loaded or unloaded. A couple things you can do. Some shippers have space and will allow you to stay there for as long as you need to so you should always ask.

Also, you need to position yourself on your trip in order to take advantage of the clock. What that means is when you start your trip, get to the shipper the night before and be in sleeper. In the morning, you can get loaded (while still being in sleeper) and start your clock after you get loaded so that the load time hasn't taken any time off your clocks. Same with getting unloaded. If you can get to the receiver and put yourself into sleeper so that at your appointment time you'll have 6 or 7 hours in sleeper than their unload time will get you to 8 or 10 if they're slow.

Your trips should allow adequate time for you to do it in. But you need to plan your trips to see which way is the best use off your time.

I feel like i'm missing something here. Does going sleeper at the dock most of the time only serve to save your 70, or do you find yourselves making sure that wait time hits 2, 8 or 10? If not, is it more a trip-planning case and making sure you have a lot of clock when you first arrive, so you can get away again if you've been held-up a weird number of hours? Any clarification is much appreciated!

Short answer is: YES - to save your 70.

If by chance - you get stuck at the shipper/receiver for more than 8 hours on sleeper - you can elect to do a "split" (if your company allows it - not all DO - mainly, because it gets confusing, even with a QC and drivers that don't fully understand how the slip provision works - end up with LOG VIOLATIONS OR SERVICE FAILURES - because they haven't calculated their available drive time correctly).

The "split" stops the 14 hour clock - at the point where you went into sleeper - OTHERWISE IT KEEPS RUNNING. So if you get stuck waiting for 7 hours (instead of 8) and have to go back on duty - that 7 hours have been "burned off" of your 14.

You could just go "Off Duty" - but most folks will go SLEEPER on the off chance you'll get jammed for 8 hours and be able to use the split and recover those hours on your 14.

Rick

I feel like i'm missing something here. Does going sleeper at the dock most of the time only serve to save your 70, or do you find yourselves making sure that wait time hits 2, 8 or 10? If not, is it more a trip-planning case and making sure you have a lot of clock when you first arrive, so you can get away again if you've been held-up a weird number of hours? Any clarification is much appreciated!

Short answer is: YES - to save your 70.

If by chance - you get stuck at the shipper/receiver for more than 8 hours on sleeper - you can elect to do a "split" (if your company allows it - not all DO - mainly, because it gets confusing, even with a QC and drivers that don't fully understand how the slip provision works - end up with LOG VIOLATIONS OR SERVICE FAILURES - because they haven't calculated their available drive time correctly).

The "split" stops the 14 hour clock - at the point where you went into sleeper - OTHERWISE IT KEEPS RUNNING. So if you get stuck waiting for 7 hours (instead of 8) and have to go back on duty - that 7 hours have been "burned off" of your 14.

You could just go "Off Duty" - but most folks will go SLEEPER on the off chance you'll get jammed for 8 hours and be able to use the split and recover those hours on your 14.

Rick

To add to what Rick has already stated; you do get the time back on your 14. So after you come out of your 8 break it is like you hit the pause button. Any time used previous to the 8 hr break off of your 14 and 11 hr clocks is still gone. You now have the remainder of your 14 and 11 hr clocks. Once you complete your 2 hour break you will get back any time previous to the 8 hour break. But, any time used in between the 8 and 2 is still gone. The 8/2 split is useful in making tight appointment windows where you would be unable to take a full 10hr break. A 10hr break is preferred to the 8/2 split as the 10hr will completely reset your 11 and 14 hr clocks.

Patrick wrote:

My company's policy is that we must show 15 min for live load or live unload. That is what they get. If at all possible I try to show up to the RCVR for a LU the night before. I start my 10 hr. I take care of the unloading while still on my break. If my 10 hr is up when I get the green light I will switch to on duty, not driving. Showing the status of pretrip and live unload. About time I get paperwork, close the doors etc. my 20 mins is up. 15 for live unload and 5 for pretrip. If my 10 hr isn't done I either go park outside the exit gate or in an empty parking spot near the gate, then finish my 10. Again, once my break is done, I will show my mandatory 20mins. Every minute of your 70hr counts. I always do my pretrip and postrip when "off duty". That way I can babysit my clock for the on duty portion.

I agree with something I once heard/read. This is the only profession will you will vehemently lie saying you are not working when you are.

Drive Safe and God Speed

Be careful if you are only logging 5 minutes for your pretrip. Not sure if that's what you are doing, not clear from your reply. DOT knows a thorough pretrip will take 15 minutes minimum, logging less than that is a risk if you are ever inspected.

My rule of thumb, log initial pretrip of 15 minutes, post trip of 5 minutes. That's what Swift requires and this also will keep DOT happy.

My company's current policy is 5 min On duty not driving for pretrip and 10 mins for post trip. I maintain my logbook I/A/W company guidelines, policies, and procedures.

I always log a Minimum of 15 minutes for PTI. Never the same 2 days in a row. 15, 22,19,17 etc. I just like the way it looks. My own personal preference.

I don't drive California but my friend does and logged 8 min for pretrip and DOT took out a stop watch and said "show me". Couldn't do a thorough pretrip in 8 min. Got a ticket.

You said the magic word: California. The place that started the medical pot movement. The DEF craze, the let's be good to our environment with skirts that block your view of your tandems and tails are a pain to fold. Not to mention let's make truckers drive 55 while self entitled 4 wheelers zoom past at 80 in their Mercedes.

And they hired a foreign national that is/was a body builder and actor as their governor.

I am still waiting for beachfront property in Arizona, lol

Thank you all so much for your replies. Much clearer. Isaac H.:

Now, as far as the 8/2 split, ANY break that is longer than 2 hours counts as a 2 hour break. So, if your at the shipper for 4 hours you can leave than take an 8 hour break to complete your split.

I did remember the regs wording in this section of "at least", but I didn't realize it was literally that flexible. That's good to know, thanks. I'm glad I asked. I find the split sleeper rules pretty straightforward and easy to comprehend, but it's definitely a tricky thing to try to explain. Rick said:

So if you get stuck waiting for 7 hours (instead of 8) and have to go back on duty - that 7 hours have been "burned off" of your 14.

Given the "flexibility", could you even pass off 7 hours as your "2", and if you still had enough on your 14, drive off to a TS, take 8, and recalculate your 14 from the end of the 7 hour-long "2"? I realize that leaves you with so little time you may as well take the 10, but regardless, could you still do that if you needed/wanted to? Also Isaac:

Put yourself in off duty the moment you enter the property so that all the check in time and paperwork stuff all gets counted in.

Sneaky! I realize that isn't legal at all, but I understand the reasoning behind it. Can you reliably creep around a property and dock without your QC logging you on duty? Good tip about trying to be on the docks when you shut-down/start-up, that sounds like a big time saver. I hope I get to find some shippers/receivers who allow parking for that!

Thanks again to all for the info.

Thank you all so much for your replies. Much clearer. Isaac H.:

Now, as far as the 8/2 split, ANY break that is longer than 2 hours counts as a 2 hour break. So, if your at the shipper for 4 hours you can leave than take an 8 hour break to complete your split.

I did remember the regs wording in this section of "at least", but I didn't realize it was literally that flexible. That's good to know, thanks. I'm glad I asked. I find the split sleeper rules pretty straightforward and easy to comprehend, but it's definitely a tricky thing to try to explain. Rick said:

So if you get stuck waiting for 7 hours (instead of 8) and have to go back on duty - that 7 hours have been "burned off" of your 14.

Given the "flexibility", could you even pass off 7 hours as your "2", and if you still had enough on your 14, drive off to a TS, take 8, and recalculate your 14 from the end of the 7 hour-long "2"? I realize that leaves you with so little time you may as well take the 10, but regardless, could you still do that if you needed/wanted to? Also Isaac:

Put yourself in off duty the moment you enter the property so that all the check in time and paperwork stuff all gets counted in.

Sneaky! I realize that isn't legal at all, but I understand the reasoning behind it. Can you reliably creep around a property and dock without your QC logging you on duty? Good tip about trying to be on the docks when you shut-down/start-up, that sounds like a big time saver. I hope I get to find some shippers/receivers who allow parking for that!

Thanks again to all for the info.

I have realized some QC are more sensitive than others and some trucks still have the older models. Mine will not trip until I drive five full miles whether I'm creeping or flying down an interstate. I have left a customer and gone three miles down the road at high speed and never tripped the clock..... Still said sleeper. For this reason if you can find parking on the street or nearby the 8 sleeper is awesome. IF I run over my 14 at the customer and I'm driving around it will shout at me "you are out of hours". Worst case scenario, if it violates me my logs Dept will remove the violation as long as I didn't drive the five miles over.

The QC will state where you are. This one beer place had us driving all over the plant. I went past my 14. It violated me and I drive 2/miles to a TA. Logs removed it.